Retiring Poker- Post career options

Why don't you try Omaha and see if it can sparkle your interest again? I don't see better opportunities than poker atm, I know you are running bad but you can have great profit winning at the stakes you play

Reason why I filtered only hold'em in the 2nd graph is to hide my losses in small stakes PLO

getting pretty close to this post myself.

rip. you're a true hero

Too soon. Its not April 1st yet.

i feel you bro

started on a big rant here but it got to messy, i went w the short sumup instead

ggwp, good decision imo!

Doing the same thing with programming. Difference is poker money is still pretty easy and available live. Maybe a 40-60 $/hr is not worth it for you and you are sitting on enough money now to purely study and transition straight into programming.

You're a smart man. I'm certain you'll succeed in any endeavor you strive for.

Fuck poker man. I wish I never discovered this game tbh.

Cheers fella

I also turned into a programmer heh

I remember awhile back I got jealous, because I saw you got into GM in sc2, and I tried that for ages, always stuck at high masters. Then I saw u had one of them really comfy chairs I wanted!! And then I found out you played high stakes!

Felt like a newb, thinking "damnit, I've tried so hard, why do I just suck at stuff" lol!

this is a decision u cannot regret, gl. My best decision was that i stopped poker completely and started university in engineering. The money i made was enough to cover my expenses for those years, and now i do what i like. Creative work with a fix salary with cool ppl around.

its never too late to start studying, get a BA degree, and work next to it part time, get connections etc

On March 22 2015 05:54 ClouD87 wrote: Why don't you try Omaha and see if it can sparkle your interest again? I don't see better opportunities than poker atm, I know you are running bad but you can have great profit winning at the stakes you play

if u dont enjoy playing the game, anything is better than poker

gl rest of the way andrew

gl andrew, you seem like the type of person who will succeed at just about anything you put your mind to.

since you're learning Ruby on Rails, you might want to check out The Odin Project, it's a pretty substantial curriculum (creator says about 1000 hours but some say that's on the low side) designed to make you employable and uses RoR (as well as Javascript, HTML/CSS). i haven't done it but i've heard good things, it seems more project-driven and less theory-focused than most online courses.

i took CS 6.001x (using Python) and thought it was awesome and everyone seems to agree, for someone like me with no prior coding background it was quite challenging in the good kind of way. however i've also heard good stuff about CS50 so if you're taking that it might be a little redundant?

i'm sure you've done your own research and maybe know this but Stack Overflow is an indispensable resource for progammers. the moderators there can be really nitty about what type of questions are allowed but i guess that's what makes it a good resource for succinct answers to technical questions.

i also like Quora for more general questions like 'if i want to X, should i learn language A/B/C?' or 'what's the difference between working at startups/big tech companies/finance' etc, you can find a lot of impressive people on there giving some pretty enlightening answers imo.

Wat? Coding is extremely boring compared to poker, isn't it? is there any way to make 15k monthly after u mastered Ruby in US?

On March 22 2015 11:38 okyougosu wrote: Wat? Coding is extremely boring compared to poker, isn't it? is there any way to make 15k monthly after u mastered Ruby in US?

software engineers at Google, Facebook, Dropbox, etc. make about that or close if you count bonuses, stock, etc. and can easily surpass it with some experience.

not to say that Ruby is the only necessary skill for those positions, but it kind of doesn't matter, once you reach a high level in one language you can learn other languages fairly quickly, every programmer has to learn new technologies during their career anyway, it's not like you can learn Ruby and call it a life. companies are looking for someone who has certain skills, but also someone who shows the aptitude to develop skills they need/will need.

HFT fund programmers have base salaries starting in low 6 figures but can earn massive bonuses (like 3-4x base salary+) with a bit of luck. they don't use Ruby for that afaik though (i think it's mostly C++ and some functional languages depending on the fund like Haskell or Ocaml).

or there's the entrepreneurial route which can be high risk/high reward obviously.

i think whether coding is boring is highly subjective, a lot of people enjoy the combination of logic and creative process. i mean, there's parts of coding that are probably boring even for people who enjoy coding, but yeah, if you find coding makes you miserable you probably shouldn't pursue it just for money.

On March 22 2015 05:54 ClouD87 wrote: ...I don't see better opportunities than poker atm...

it's kind of mind-boggling you continue to repeat this when nearly everyone who's in a position to know better than you consistently says the contrary

I've recently quit poker as well and I know now that I should've quit 2 years ago. I haven't enjoyed the game for 2 years and when you're doing something you don't enjoy, like someone else said, anything is better than poker. And I was making a whole lot less than you. My motivations are that I want to commit myself to some use in society working with nice people all day. I have a finished bachelor's degree in civil engineering so from the start of the year I've been making preparations to find a job in that field (like creating a resumé, linkedin and stuff). That has culminated in a job interview last friday which went really well and another one tomorrow. Hope I bink one of them.

Long story short: when you don't enjoy poker, make the smart decision and quit that shit. It's depressing as fuck. It truly sucks the joy out of life when you're in a downswing. I feel much more happy now not having to worry about the game and actually going on job interviews and such. It gives me a lot of motivation to succeed.

On March 22 2015 12:35 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On March 22 2015 05:54 ClouD87 wrote: ...I don't see better opportunities than poker atm... it's kind of mind-boggling you continue to repeat this when nearly everyone who's in a position to know better than you consistently says the contrary

Who is in a better position to know what Cloud sees than Cloud ? He is talking about his perceived view of livelyhood opportunities and coming from someone who played games for his entire life I can see and relate to where he is coming from.
Andrew obviously sees it differently and we can only applaud him since he is light-years ahead of almost anyone who visits this site in terms of skill and still made the decision to quit which is probably the toughest one that poker pro can make.

On March 22 2015 13:04 Twisted wrote: I've recently quit poker as well and I know now that I should've quit 2 years ago. I haven't enjoyed the game for 2 years and when you're doing something you don't enjoy, like someone else said, anything is better than poker. And I was making a whole lot less than you. My motivations are that I want to commit myself to some use in society working with nice people all day. I have a finished bachelor's degree in civil engineering so from the start of the year I've been making preparations to find a job in that field (like creating a resumé, linkedin and stuff). That has culminated in a job interview last friday which went really well and another one tomorrow. Hope I bink one of them. Long story short: when you don't enjoy poker, make the smart decision and quit that shit. It's depressing as fuck. It truly sucks the joy out of life when you're in a downswing. I feel much more happy now not having to worry about the game and actually going on job interviews and such. It gives me a lot of motivation to succeed.

I enjoyed reading this post. Hope you snag one of those jobs too, Twisted. Good day kind sir

On March 22 2015 14:47 BlizzY wrote: Show nested quote + On March 22 2015 12:35 bigredhoss wrote:   On March 22 2015 05:54 ClouD87 wrote: ...I don't see better opportunities than poker atm... it's kind of mind-boggling you continue to repeat this when nearly everyone who's in a position to know better than you consistently says the contrary Who is in a better position to know what Cloud sees than Cloud ? He is talking about his perceived view of livelyhood opportunities and coming from someone who played games for his entire life I can see and relate to where he is coming from. Andrew obviously sees it differently and we can only applaud him since he is light-years ahead of almost anyone who visits this site in terms of skill and still made the decision to quit which is probably the toughest one that poker pro can make.

Cloud is definitely the #1 expert on Cloud's perception, good call there.

On March 22 2015 14:51 devon06atX wrote: Show nested quote + On March 22 2015 13:04 Twisted wrote: I've recently quit poker as well and I know now that I should've quit 2 years ago. I haven't enjoyed the game for 2 years and when you're doing something you don't enjoy, like someone else said, anything is better than poker. And I was making a whole lot less than you. My motivations are that I want to commit myself to some use in society working with nice people all day. I have a finished bachelor's degree in civil engineering so from the start of the year I've been making preparations to find a job in that field (like creating a resumé, linkedin and stuff). That has culminated in a job interview last friday which went really well and another one tomorrow. Hope I bink one of them. Long story short: when you don't enjoy poker, make the smart decision and quit that shit. It's depressing as fuck. It truly sucks the joy out of life when you're in a downswing. I feel much more happy now not having to worry about the game and actually going on job interviews and such. It gives me a lot of motivation to succeed. I enjoyed reading this post. Hope you snag one of those jobs too, Twisted. Good day kind sir

Thanks!

On March 22 2015 12:15 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On March 22 2015 11:38 okyougosu wrote: Wat? Coding is extremely boring compared to poker, isn't it? is there any way to make 15k monthly after u mastered Ruby in US? software engineers at Google, Facebook, Dropbox, etc. make about that or close if you count bonuses, stock, etc. and can easily surpass it with some experience. not to say that Ruby is the only necessary skill for those positions, but it kind of doesn't matter, once you reach a high level in one language you can learn other languages fairly quickly, every programmer has to learn new technologies during their career anyway, it's not like you can learn Ruby and call it a life. companies are looking for someone who has certain skills, but also someone who shows the aptitude to develop skills they need/will need. HFT fund programmers have base salaries starting in low 6 figures but can earn massive bonuses (like 3-4x base salary+) with a bit of luck. they don't use Ruby for that afaik though (i think it's mostly C++ and some functional languages depending on the fund like Haskell or Ocaml). or there's the entrepreneurial route which can be high risk/high reward obviously. i think whether coding is boring is highly subjective, a lot of people enjoy the combination of logic and creative process. i mean, there's parts of coding that are probably boring even for people who enjoy coding, but yeah, if you find coding makes you miserable you probably shouldn't pursue it just for money.

It would be fine idea to switch into coding for someone who breakeven at mid/low stakes like me, i know base c++, yet i find it more fun to continue playing poker. Whenever u do certain task in programming u basically know u can never fail... it is just going to take some time until u finish it. Thats the only reason coding is better then poker, no swings, stable payouts etc. Anyways if u want to try out new activity, go for it. As for me, i'd never switch to lower paid job just because i'm bored by the old one, would prob just mix those two for a while.

Thanks for the kind words and wishes guys!

Bigredhoss - I will definitely add Odin project to my immediate to do list.
Twisted- Good luck in your journey. Please update us in your progress.

I do agree with Cloud on some level and it was also the reason I couldn't let go of this game earlier. I dreaded playing the game, but I also loved talking and living poker. I actually never imagined myself to get this good at NLH even looking back from year or two ago. The feeling of constant improving was almost an addiction. However, I wasn't improving financially and it's a big problem if you're only making fraction of what you used to make when you are 10x better.

ill miss u andy, man those days back on ftp back in like 2006 were a lot of fun. came a long way from a cell phone store depositing 500-1k to build a roll.

ur a great guy, i hope u find what u want in the world and find happiness.

i'd keep like 8k to at least play mid limits n stuff for some free $
(if u don't have like 500k in bank already)

Wish you the best with your endeavors.

It's a great community here at LP, the one place you can get intelligent responses on the internet. Sad to see everyone moving away. Though, if everyone has moved on to coding, perhaps an LP coding sub-forum on the sidebar?


Poll: Want to learn/talk about your programming projects on LP?
(Vote): Yeah, it would be good to discuss with people who have similar backgrounds
(Vote): Nah, I'm not into coding
(Vote): Nah, there are better places

It seems like everyone who has had doubts about quitting ultimately ended up playing live or a combo of both with live actually representing the majority of their play. Have you given full-time live a thought yet?

I think you're making a good decision if you no longer enjoy it. You're an LP hero and always will be.

If you do play at all what I'd recommend honestly is that you continue to carve out 1-2 hours a day at lower stress free stakes with a focus on just becoming an even better player than you already are (if you feel like doing so). Like a fun little science project.

Personally I've never played poker full-time. I didn't have the desire when the games are soft and I'm not sure I have the acumen now that the games are much tougher and the rake so high especially at lower stakes. If there was a much lower rake climate I'd happily play a shit-ton. However, given the climate being what it actually is, I think there is much greater $/hr investment in learning to code. If you like building things and figuring out puzzles you'll probably enjoy it. If you end up working somewhere that you make great friendships you'll enjoy it a ton. It's a career of continuous learning and personally I think it's an awesome choice, it's my #1 backup plan if I can't weasel my way into the field I've been working towards for the past 6-8 years. And I'd estimate most anyone with a solid work ethic can become a decently paid programmer within 1 year, and the payscale and ability scale only goes up from there if you work hard.

Honestly, the greatest thing about poker and continuing to play in the games as they got tougher is that we've all learned how to work hard, study, and focus on continuous learning and discipline. That skill is going to serve you well for the rest of your life. I've never worked harder at anything than I have at analyzing large poker databases and figuring out leaks. There isn't anything I can think of that I've done where I had to be so aware of even tiny mistakes because they'll bleed you're entire roll if you make them consistently. You've learned a ton of attention to detail and improvement from playing this game. Use that and you'll be just fine.

I did it a few ago. Started a burger bar and got a maths degree. Good call. Best wishes.

gg wp

Have a feeling you're going to do very well at programming. If you have any questions on job hunting, working for tech companies, options/stocks at startups. More than happy to help out.

just speaking from the rail here but similar to NewbSaibot i'm wondering your thought process on live games? or how that factors into your plan/decision

GL in whatever you decide to pursue in the future Song!

Hey man I've recently just got my degree in IT and programming is something that kind of has to blow ur mind the first few times u try it otherwise your interest level will drop down significantly while your stress level goes up throughout the course, if ur planning to do this for some income it is not worth it if u don't enjoy it. This is how I felt every time I had a coding subject. If you enjoy it though then that's not a problem because your interest level will help you study and get better at coding.

Good luck in the future.

The screen shot of your AIEV is scary.

I have a feeling you won't quit for good though. After being your own boss for so long how do are you feeling about going to work for someone else? Not sure I could choose to do that now.

On March 23 2015 02:08 MARSHALL28 wrote: The screen shot of your AIEV is scary. I have a feeling you won't quit for good though. After being your own boss for so long how do are you feeling about going to work for someone else? Not sure I could choose to do that now.

If I'm honest to myself, poker was never a business to me. It was a game with rewards being fun coupons in life. I've lived lavishly from playing this game and sometimes it disconnected me from reality. Majority of my poker career felt like a long summer vacation. I was a terrible boss to my self and did everything wrong besides pure motivation to beat this game. In a sense, I wish that I had a boss that told me what to do.

On March 22 2015 16:41 NewbSaibot wrote: It seems like everyone who has had doubts about quitting ultimately ended up playing live or a combo of both with live actually representing the majority of their play. Have you given full-time live a thought yet?

On March 22 2015 20:37 Santafairy wrote: just speaking from the rail here but similar to NewbSaibot i'm wondering your thought process on live games? or how that factors into your plan/decision

I think if I be realistic, I'm still capable of making $200k/yr+ online for couple more years if I played poker like my life depended on it. Even to this day, the amount of money I give away by knowingly playing regs that's better than me is a lot of $$. I would probably start by phasing that out if I absolutely felt like I'm struggling as a player. As for live, I've already tried reggn the big games around me but all the games run on set days and I've never been accustomed to playing on weekends even online. The waiting game for tuesday 10/25 at parx is also gruesome. Live line up is incredibly soft but the amount of time it eats compared to online makes my decision easy. I'm cringing typing this stuff because it makes me realize I hate money..

iop, thanks for the offer, let me get back to you in the future!

On March 22 2015 16:34 Silver_nz wrote: It's a great community here at LP, the one place you can get intelligent responses on the internet. Sad to see everyone moving away. Though, if everyone has moved on to coding, perhaps an LP coding sub-forum on the sidebar?

japan update gogogog

Jesus, stop those depressing posts, it doesn't help for me since I can't really works outside of poker...

you're a great guy with great skills and you're gonna do great

aside from poker, you kinda have to choose from like

1: risky/dangerous
2: really difficult
3: doesn't make much money
4: consumes all your time and energy
5: consumes your soul

where most jobs require you to pick at least one of those, sometimes two. figure out which sounds worse to you and go for it. Then there's a whole bunch of, what are your personal characteristics /strengths/weaknesses, choose something that suits you from that also. I actually got to freeroll some pretty sweet "personal development&figuring out future life path" course through my soon- ex-job when it was being shut down. For me there was no point as I've known I'm gonna do teaching since I've been like 15, but for many of my colleagues it was really useful, and even though a lot of it sounds intuitive to me now, sometimes intuitive differs from person to person and sometimes you don't consider even the intuitive. But anyway, from my perspective you're in a sweeeet spot, because you have:

ability, time, money. This means that you just need to figure out what you actually want to be/do, and work towards that goal. For so many people in their late 20s early 30s, they discover that their chosen life path was the wrong one, but then they're kinda life-trapped and just have to keep on trucking, but you've made so much (and are so capable) that you can actually figure out what your goals are and work towards them. And then it's like, you just figure out what you enjoy and are good at (feeling of mastery is for most an essential path of happiness!), and checklist your way towards that goal.

I think programming is a great skillset to have, but it's not easy money.. Unless you have brilliant innovative ideas (in which case having the programming skills to execute them is absolutely fantastic), my impression of most people who code for a living is that they're overworked and at best fairly compensated, usually not so much.. Then again, aside from poker/some other type of gambling/investment, jobs that I regard as "consumes your soul (with a possible +risky)", you're not going to come by nearly as easy money as you have been making. But then if you've been smart about it, you have so much saved up that you can get by with less in the future - you can live much more comfortably if you don't have student loans or mortgage downpayments to worry about. Really though, if I were you right now, I'd want to go out of my comfort zone for a bit, figure out what I'm good at and enjoy doing, my first impression is that programming might not be it.

This is really sad but good luck in all your future endeavors! Wish you only the best!

Just the natural transition in poker for high stakes cash players to eventually quit, new guys step up, and the games go on. I always wondered why most of the highest stakes players never really stayed reigning supreme, its natural for them to lose interest/ find a better opportunity.

I admired your ambition to improve and learn as you rose to the top and I appreciate all your help.

Hello Stranger.

Take time off. It takes time to let go. Only then can you truly move forward. Spend time with your gf, she will appreciate it and her support will matter.
There are more important things in life than avarice. It will only get better from now. Maybe a little bit worse but a whole lot better.

'A wise man will make more opportunities than he finds'
'Chance makes us known to others and to ourselves'
'Fortune discovers our vices and our virtues, as the light makes objects plain to the sight'
'Before strongly desiring anything we should examine what happiness he has who posesses it'
'Few things are needed to make a wise man happy; nothing can make a fool content; that is why most men are miserable'
'We commonly praise the good hearts of those who admire us'
'We trouble ourselves less to become happy, than to make others believe we are so'
'Prosperity do best discover vice, but adversity do best discover virtue'

'Whatever difference there appears in our fortunes, there is nevertheless a certain compensation of good and evil which renders them equal'

On March 23 2015 13:50 ReSpOnSe wrote: This is really sad but good luck in all your future endeavors! Wish you only the best!

Sad? I don't think so. What's sad is grinding away at stressful job you've come to dislike, while never having the courage to move on and try something new.

What's been hard for me ever since I quit, is trying to figure out what to do next. Experiencing the freedom poker has to offer desensitizes many people from reality, and it makes it that much harder to transition out of it. Like you mentioned, it's a summer vacation that's finally come to an end.. What to do now? Work towards a a 4 year degree? Learn a skill like programming, only to realize it may not be for you? Everything pales in comparison to the freedom poker has to offer. I suppose in a way it is sad. :/

tho like others have said; you have the time, money, and obviously a whole lot of determination to of made it this far in poker - you'll crush whatever field you decide to pursue.

Funny how many of us are motivated to learn programming after reading Panorama's blog. It reminds me of the time Rekrul's stories motivated a lot of people here to play poker.

Is programming actually fun tho for you guys?

But yeah, it's about finding whatever fulfills you, forgetting about the money because it'll always come if you are passionate about something and then doing that thing wholeheartedly. Doubt you can go wrong with this approach.

Hey!! Now that you're quitting. You probably have tons and tons of notes, excel sheets and other interesting Poker stuff piled up over the years!!

Can I have some of it???

he'll be back

Sorry for not seeing this earlier, but yeah let me know if I can help.

LP programming subforum would be pretty cool

Best of luck Andrew, and let us know how it's going a few years down the line. Seeing this post tipped me over the edge into writing this blogpost, which is hopefully helpful to some http://www.liquidpoker.net/blog/viewblog.php?id=1125281

Open up a strip joint! Or a brothel!
Haha. ill be your partner.

Man, wish you best in the future.

On March 25 2015 07:11 spets1 wrote: Open up a strip joint! Or a brothel! Haha. ill be your partner. Man, wish you best in the future.

cucumber water is only for the customers though

Update: shipped one of the jobs. Starting Tuesday

On April 01 2015 16:54 Twisted wrote: Update: shipped one of the jobs. Starting Tuesday

Congrats, where at?

Big Dutch construction company focused on building and maintaining roads. Will be second hand to the contractor at the job itself. It's a pretty good starting position but will be some adjusting haha. Have to get up at around 5:15 AM.

Already trying to get used to the schedule, woke up today at 6AM.

Grats buddy! I guess your summer vacation is finally over. 5:15 sounds like serious business. Grats again!

Haha so true, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks! Hope you'll find what you're looking for as well.

Quitting poker is a great decision unless you're really enjoying it and making a lot of money, which does not seem to be your case.
I'm personally now working for governement 35h/week in a fun stress free job with nice people, with a salary which is more than enough for me. Def happier than back when i played poker. Poker was sick fun for the first year, but it got dull after a while.

So much respect for the 5:15AM wake up.

On April 03 2015 16:08 Floofy wrote: Quitting poker is a great decision unless you're really enjoying it and making a lot of money, which does not seem to be your case. I'm personally now working for governement 35h/week in a fun stress free job with nice people, with a salary which is more than enough for me. Def happier than back when i played poker. Poker was sick fun for the first year, but it got dull after a while.

We demand more girl update blogs tho where they at!