On September 02 2016 04:14 RiKD wrote:
I have some whole food, plant based diet questions:
What/how are people eating across a day?
Hemp seed protein powder smoothies?
As one can see I am worried about how people get protein. It is a bias that will be tough to beat after a lifetime of programming. I am much more secure in myself and much more awake but I just know, for example, if I have a tough training session my first instinct is to obsess about protein. I would absolutely love to get to the point where I am just eating a whole food, plant based diet and feeling great and not even thinking about protein.
Are there any studies on groups that only ate wild meat sources? What if all the data that links to illness is for groups that consume farm inc. cows, chickens, pigs?
What about tofu? What's the deal with tofu?
What I really would like to avoid is anything deriving from the corn and soybean industrial complex. Cows, chickens, pigs. Processed corn and soybean stuff. It is time to work towards ending this madness.
Anything else that newbie whole food, plant based diet eaters might want to know?
Supplements?
What the hell? Studies show that people have been eating meat for a long time. The fuck is your problem with protein? One of the three macronutrients. They are called macronutrients because you need quite a lot of them in the diet. Eat healthy and stop supplementing. Such backward thinking. Prepare your own meals, you'll learn a lot. Learn to cook and you'll see things from a totally different perspective.
Studies showing that people have been doing X for a long time is not an argument to do X. It's a vacuous observation. It doesn't tell us anything about what is desirable or not (and how it could have been desirable in the past but how that situation has changed). It also sounds like an appeal to tradition. What you probably wanted to say is that people have been benefiting from eating meat for a long time and that therefore we should all be eating meat. If I am correct and this is your position, then that is a very vague, but also extraordinary claim which I sincerely doubt you can back up with solid research. And I say it's vague because that statement doesn't say anything about which meat or in which quantity it is helpful. If you want us to compare the diets that we both recommend and see who has the best evidence for our recommendations, then please make direct statements about what you oppose instead of vague ones like these. Which leads me to your next point...
"The fuck is your problem with protein?"
The precise issue I brought up and which RiKD is struggling with due to his past conditioning-- as you no doubt would be as well judging from your reaction-- is not about protein generally, it's about the fact that a person doesn't actually need meat and dairy to meet their protein needs. I'm saying that if you believe otherwise, you're simply uninformed (or misinformed). Just use common sense: if something is absolutely critical to our lives, then it must be easily attainable, or else we wouldn't have evolved to be the most successful species on the planet. Can you imagine us having been this successful if we had to jump through hoops to get the oxygen we need? So it is with protein. It is ubiquitous in all of the whole, natural foods we evolved to eat. And guess what, plants don't run as fast as animals. It was what we could always rely upon to meet our needs. And to use and extend the oxygen analogy further, we need a certain amount of water and a certain amount of oxygen. Any more than we need would be detrimental and could actually kill us. So it is with protein, again. I am clearly not debating the absolute importance of protein in the diet. It's about which proteins we favor consuming and in which quantity, not whether or not we need protein.
My argument is that the optimal diet is one where you get your protein from plant foods as much as possible. High animal protein diets are consistently associated with higher morbidity and mortality rates. Just recently, again, Harvard scientists came out with a study showing exact that, this time published in the highly respectable JAMA. And they really spell it out this time: "Conclusions and Relevance: High animal protein intake was positively associated with mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source." Source: Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality.
At least we agree on one thing: supplements are largely a waste of money with only a very few exceptions for some people.
Hello Loco, Rikd, others
lots of rabbit holes to jump down into but i'll try and keep it simple
My problem is the position against any macronutrient, in this case it happened to be protein. Protein, carbs, fat... pick your evil. I've become good buddies with all of them. I believe one should assess his/her whole diet and quality of produce. I do advocate eating protein, in moderation and following common sense. It is good to have multiple sources of protein and be reasonable with quantity. That's all i'm saying here. If you absolutely must get your protein from plant based foods then by all means, go for it. Personally i don't see the point and i'll eat whatever i please. I agree with the ballpark of protein needed and agree it is lower than most prescribe. I'd like to add that it is a good idea to spread protein intake throughout the day if possible.
I see the urge to tinker with everything to come up with the perfect meal plan or whatever but it need not go past reasonable. I'd like you to give opinion on cooking. I believe cooking your own meals teaches you a lot about the food you eat and how to nourish your body. Most don't know how restaurants cook, what proccessed foods they eat or even the quantities they are eating. If you prepare the food you eat and make an effort to keep the food real you are doing good. It may not be GTO food but its good enough.
If you must know i get fresh eggs straight from the countryside, local meat from the butchers and fish from the market. I prepare the vast majority of my own meals.
There is no "position against a macronutrient" advocated here. There is only discussion of what is necessary and what is wasteful or harmful. You have to understand the context in which I'm seemingly "attacking protein". We've been brainwashed as a society to be worried about protein. Most people believe that we have to consciously plan our meals in order to meet our protein needs, which as I have shown is complete nonsense. Food items are often marketed with their protein levels, which is hilarious to me. The average person eats twice the protein that their body can actually utilize. And of course, when people think about protein they think about meat first, because we were told in the past that meat protein was superior to plant protein, which isn't true and even though this myth has been laid to rest in the scientific literature, it's still very much alive in popular culture where people love to hear good things about their bad habits.
I am not in favor of micro-managing a diet. I don't believe in counting anything. I'm not advocating tinkering with macro-nutrients at all. When I eat food, I don't see carbs, fats and proteins. I see food. I believe in eating clean, nutrient rich whole foods until you feel satisfied. As for cooking and preparing your own meals, that's a no brainer. The more control you have over the ingredients in the food you eat, the better. But the act of cooking your own meals isn't more important than the actual foods that you choose to eat regularly. Anthony Bourdain knows a lot more about cooking than I do, but he's the one who has to take statins. Lots of people who cook almost all their meals live to eat, they don't eat to live. All I can say about this is echo Seneca when he said, omnis stultitia laborat fastidio sui-- folly is its own burden.
So you are saying plant based proteins are superior to animal protein. Or are you outright saying milk, chicken and pork is bad? If the latter i'd like to read up on some research. Research be bulshit on both sides, all in the game. Minorities can be big markets too if you can market to them specifically. I just heard the other day from a local producer there isn't much market for vegan products. The first vegan shop in my city had to close doors and move online. It speaks to people being brainwashed but it also speaks to there not being that much truth to animal protein being detrimental to ones health.
Actually, in my post which you have quoted here I am not saying that plant protein is superior to animal protein. What I said is that animal protein was definitely not superior to plant protein, which is different, because it leaves the possibility that they might be equally good. (I don't believe this to be the case and I'll get to that in the second paragraph). Here I was explaining to you the context in which it's important to talk about protein and how people believed for decades that meat protein was superior to plant protein. The idea here was that plant proteins didn't have a complete amino acid profile and you had to carefully combine different plant foods in order to reach adequate protein levels. This was proven to be a myth and some people still believe this today and it's largely why people think plants are inferior to animal foods.
In my previous post that you quoted, I did present the case that plant protein was shown to be healthier than animal protein in the best scientific studies we have to date. One important thing to note is that I believe there is a lot more to it than just the protein itself: what comes with the protein matters, and I've touched on this in this thread before; it's not just what you eat that matters, it's what you're not eating in the process as well. Now, I linked a very recent study to you, done by Harvard scientists and published in a very reputable journal. I bolded the conclusion to be sure you couldn't possibly miss it. You haven't yet commented on it, but you're asking me for such research here. Why is that? Second problem here is that you say "research can be bullshit on both sides", which really doesn't say anything except the obvious. Perhaps you were saying this so as to be able to easily dismiss the study, I don't know. What I do know is that you haven't presented this other side. If you're implying that there are studies showing the opposite result and so we shouldn't trust this one, well, if you can provide that study, we can examine the quality of both and see which one we should trust the most. Easy enough. So, you shouldn't be asking me for (more) research here. I've already linked a relevant paper and I've linked to a lot more data showing the detrimental effects of animal products in this thread and you haven't responded to any of it yet. The ball is obviously in your court, not mine. If you do provide me with studies that seem to contradict the results of those that I've linked, then I have no problem with compiling more research and sharing it here, but I won't waste time building a stronger case when you've done no work at all yet.
Your last point is honestly not worth addressing. You are drawing a ridiculous conclusion based on incomplete information. "Veganism isn't popular where I live, therefore plant-based diets mustn't be nutritionally sound". Okay, to be fair you are not saying exactly this, but it's very close. What you said includes two logical fallacies: False Cause and argument from popularity. It's also an obvious non sequitur to say that this relates to protein specifically. There could be a plethora of reasons as to why that is. How about the most obvious: people like the food they are eating, they grew up eating it, their parents grew up eating it, and they haven't found a reason to change it. Well okay, so how are the people doing? You don't say anything about their health and longevity. Isn't that what we want to know? If you had said "in my country we have some of the lowest rates of chronic diseases and we eat a lot of animal protein", that would be very different and something to investigate. Who cares what they are doing if we don't know the results? Well, I've just had a look and Estonia is ranked as the number one country in the world with the highest death rate due to Hypertension. It's also ranked very high in the top countries with the highest risk/death rates for all the major chronic diseases I looked at afterwards, which doesn't come as a surprise. What I have done multiple times in this thread is show that the populations who have the best quality of life and the longest livespans all happen to eat very little animal protein. This is highly relevant and a simple claim which should be very easy to refute if I am wrong. You could start there if you want.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
I will say one thing about whole food, plant based diets: it can be a bit tricky to go out to dinner. The one thing I found on an Italian menu was a linguine with peppers, tomatoes, and olives which was great. It was heavy on the olive oil though. Prepared foods at Whole Foods is similar. There is a great 5 bean salad that is pretty heavy on the canola and olive oil. Then tonight I had to substitute more black beans and corn for chicken in a salad. It was still lacking in the black beans and corn and heavy on the vegetable oils in the dressing. I will say it is nice to be able to have a couple of pieces of fresh, warm bread and have zero guilt whatsoever.
I have realized I am pretty inept at plant based grocery shopping and cooking. It is not so difficult it is just different. I will be picking and choosing some bluezone classics and going from there. I will likely start with that soup you posted Loco. I figure a lot of the soups are great as left overs and also great for freezing. I have noticed I have been feeling pretty good. One thing is I have been farting more. Especially with the bean heavy meals. Hopefully, that adjusts?
A Dr. John McDougall tip that has helped is to make the starch the star and the vegetables and the fruits the side(s). Also, when I started I was eating a ton of oils, nuts, avocados, cheese. So much better to get those calories in starch and fruits.
A Dr. Garth Davis tip that has helped is to just look at the food or the meal as FOOD. Do not just be stuck in the trap of focusing on macronutrients but rather as overall food. Rich Roll, also, said something about how the meals will just naturally rotate around across a week or weeks so that everything naturally gets taken care of. Furthermore, I will be looking into some recipes that my local farm can accommodate as much as possible.
This is crazy that Truth Discussion Thread morphed into Whole Food, Plant Based Diet Truth Thread. I started arguing for the Paleo team. I ended up getting some pretty bad cholesterol numbers. Now, I have a goal/experiment of whole food, plant based diet for 3 months. I love LP. Special shout out to Loco. Bluezone diet to live great life until Aubrey de Grey can intervene any ailments for the win. Hell can be other people but life does not have to be that way. We are a sum of our actions. Grateful to be alive. (I need to find a good quote about death. I can not think of or find something adequate. What pops out is, "today is a good day to die" but I do not like that because it is likely a mis-translation of the Lakota language and over used. "If I die before I wake, pray the Lord my soul to take".... no.... just no... )
It has morphed into a discussion about nutrition, health and longevity, not specifically a WFPB diet thread, since others are arguing (or can argue) against it or in favor of something else. I'm just recommending that particular way of eating and am happy to share resources about it.
Yes, it's definitely challenging if you're someone who likes to eat out a lot. Here in Montreal it's incredibly easy to be vegan but I avoid most vegan places because they have no idea how to prepare food without lots of oil. If you absolutely must go out to places that aren't WFPB-friendly, just try asking them to fix you something on demand or modify something on the menu. They can usually do that. You're paying good money to eat there, so you shouldn't worry about being too demanding. Honestly this was a very good thing for me, it has forced me to learn how to prepare my own meals from scratch, and I'm saving a lot of money making healthier meals as a result. I don't particularly like cooking though, so I have some staple meals that I alternate and I make a good quantity of food to make sure that I don't find myself in a situation where I'm hungry and there isn't anything around which would lead me to order in or go out to eat. One great thing about this WOE is that you can buy your staples (starches) in large quantities, save money and they keep very well. I always have oats, potatoes, rice and beans around and I don't have to worry about expiration dates and wasting food.
More flatulence is completely normal (read this). Your gut flora will change on this diet (for the better) and the body gets used to the higher amounts of fiber and it becomes better at digesting beans too. If you prepare your own beans and soak/rinse them properly you will reduce flatulence a lot, but some flatulence is unavoidable due to the indigestible sugars. Personally I've noticed eating this way I have slightly more flatulence but they are no longer foul smelling. It's a trade off I gladly accept considering all the benefits I've experienced. Note that beans are not mandatory, you could meet all your nutrient needs without them. They're just too healthy to pass up imo.
Oh and I just stumbled upon this video. Relevant for you I think. Guy with a Paleo type diet goes on a 1 week plant-based experiment. Ends up doing it for far longer than that.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
I thought I saw some cowspiracy being discussed somewhere maybe not but the paradox of veganism is what are you going to do about all the animals? You refuse to harvest them so they will inevitably overpopulate and eat all of your food. Just like he explained about hindus and cows being sacred they are a huge problem destroying all of India. Just in case someone talked about cowspiracy the thing is that modern agriculture being only vegan would be just as bad.
All of you vegan fuckers better be shitting and pissing everywhere because you will have to kill all the animals so they don't eat your crops so get to work.
The thing is that with proper planning the animals complement the farm with manure/pest control etc.
Why do you have to go to the extreme eat meat once a week ffs. Your studies are from people eating the shittiest western diets. There's also examples of vegans that have kids and the kids die because their breast milk is inadequate.
I take care of populations of stray cats in my area. You know what we do when they cause problems? We don't kill them and eat them. We sterilize them. It's called being a civilized human being and using your brain to solve problems rather than resort to violence.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Lol violence.. Dying because of modern agriculture and civilization which I'm completely against. I'm talking about the switch to veganism it means 'sterilizing' animals and what do you do with them set them to graze the planet aimlessly? Why completely abandon such a productive creature as the chicken that you can carefully put to free range certain parts of your farm acting as pest control and fertilizer are you just going to throw away all their eggs? Vegans are dogmatic and emotional.
A healthy balance in nature includes humans killing to survive.
The inevitable mass starvation is going to happen we have created an artificial explosion in population through technology. Everyone switching to veganism is not going to change anything.
Ah yes, I forgot you are against civilization, well, except when you want to use your computer and other devices you depend upon, enjoy the many foods that are the product of human domestication, or when you needed medical assistance and analgesics were administered to you.
There can be no "switch to veganism" since veganism is a personal ethic and it cannot be imposed upon people. If there were to be a switch towards moving away from animal foods--which isn't the same as veganism--then obviously the demand would slowly diminish and less animals would be breed as a result until there aren't any new ones being breed. It would necessarily happen progressively. There isn't a world in which we have to be confused at all the farm animals serving no purpose and where we have to "set them to graze the planet aimlessly".
"Why completely abandon such a productive creature as the chicken"
Why completely abandon the black man? They accomplished so many things for us. Yes, I am aware that comparing human animals with non-human animals is frowned upon, but the answer is the same. An individual's life is an end-in-itself. Whether it's a human or non-human animal, if it has a mother and a father, and a distinct personality and the ability to feel strong emotions, then it is an individual. Now I don't consider the life of a human to be equal to that of a chicken, but I have an equal number of reasons not to enslave either of them. With that said, I don't see any vegan activists out there protesting to abolish the small farmer's permaculture farm. It's at most a minor issue to them personally, it's clearly not what they are really concerned with. You making this the center point of the discussion is nothing but a distraction from the issues that really matter. It's like if I started screaming about dogmatic vegans who don't believe we should be eating oysters whereas I do. It's pretty much a non-issue. There are very few vegans who are dogmatic and who focus on "vegan purity" and are against my ostroveganism, and just because they exist doesn't mean I have to generalize and attack veganism as a whole.
Yes, we've breed chickens to be very productive. They are much bigger as a result and yield more eggs, which causes more stress to them. Even the best 'humane' farm is going to rely on such chickens, and it all relies on an industry that kills male chicks since they are useless to the business. Chickens are not needed to fertilize land. But even if they were and I lived on a farm, I wouldn't consume their eggs. I'd just give them as food to an animal who doesn't increase his risk of chronic disease from eating eggs. I'm particularly not interested in getting Alzheimer's, especially since I have a variant of the APOE gene which increases my risk significantly.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On September 02 2016 04:14 RiKD wrote:
I have some whole food, plant based diet questions:
What/how are people eating across a day?
Hemp seed protein powder smoothies?
As one can see I am worried about how people get protein. It is a bias that will be tough to beat after a lifetime of programming. I am much more secure in myself and much more awake but I just know, for example, if I have a tough training session my first instinct is to obsess about protein. I would absolutely love to get to the point where I am just eating a whole food, plant based diet and feeling great and not even thinking about protein.
Are there any studies on groups that only ate wild meat sources? What if all the data that links to illness is for groups that consume farm inc. cows, chickens, pigs?
What about tofu? What's the deal with tofu?
What I really would like to avoid is anything deriving from the corn and soybean industrial complex. Cows, chickens, pigs. Processed corn and soybean stuff. It is time to work towards ending this madness.
Anything else that newbie whole food, plant based diet eaters might want to know?
Supplements?
What the hell? Studies show that people have been eating meat for a long time. The fuck is your problem with protein? One of the three macronutrients. They are called macronutrients because you need quite a lot of them in the diet. Eat healthy and stop supplementing. Such backward thinking. Prepare your own meals, you'll learn a lot. Learn to cook and you'll see things from a totally different perspective.
Studies showing that people have been doing X for a long time is not an argument to do X. It's a vacuous observation. It doesn't tell us anything about what is desirable or not (and how it could have been desirable in the past but how that situation has changed). It also sounds like an appeal to tradition. What you probably wanted to say is that people have been benefiting from eating meat for a long time and that therefore we should all be eating meat. If I am correct and this is your position, then that is a very vague, but also extraordinary claim which I sincerely doubt you can back up with solid research. And I say it's vague because that statement doesn't say anything about which meat or in which quantity it is helpful. If you want us to compare the diets that we both recommend and see who has the best evidence for our recommendations, then please make direct statements about what you oppose instead of vague ones like these. Which leads me to your next point...
"The fuck is your problem with protein?"
The precise issue I brought up and which RiKD is struggling with due to his past conditioning-- as you no doubt would be as well judging from your reaction-- is not about protein generally, it's about the fact that a person doesn't actually need meat and dairy to meet their protein needs. I'm saying that if you believe otherwise, you're simply uninformed (or misinformed). Just use common sense: if something is absolutely critical to our lives, then it must be easily attainable, or else we wouldn't have evolved to be the most successful species on the planet. Can you imagine us having been this successful if we had to jump through hoops to get the oxygen we need? So it is with protein. It is ubiquitous in all of the whole, natural foods we evolved to eat. And guess what, plants don't run as fast as animals. It was what we could always rely upon to meet our needs. And to use and extend the oxygen analogy further, we need a certain amount of water and a certain amount of oxygen. Any more than we need would be detrimental and could actually kill us. So it is with protein, again. I am clearly not debating the absolute importance of protein in the diet. It's about which proteins we favor consuming and in which quantity, not whether or not we need protein.
My argument is that the optimal diet is one where you get your protein from plant foods as much as possible. High animal protein diets are consistently associated with higher morbidity and mortality rates. Just recently, again, Harvard scientists came out with a study showing exact that, this time published in the highly respectable JAMA. And they really spell it out this time: "Conclusions and Relevance: High animal protein intake was positively associated with mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source." Source: Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality.
At least we agree on one thing: supplements are largely a waste of money with only a very few exceptions for some people.
Hello Loco, Rikd, others
lots of rabbit holes to jump down into but i'll try and keep it simple
My problem is the position against any macronutrient, in this case it happened to be protein. Protein, carbs, fat... pick your evil. I've become good buddies with all of them. I believe one should assess his/her whole diet and quality of produce. I do advocate eating protein, in moderation and following common sense. It is good to have multiple sources of protein and be reasonable with quantity. That's all i'm saying here. If you absolutely must get your protein from plant based foods then by all means, go for it. Personally i don't see the point and i'll eat whatever i please. I agree with the ballpark of protein needed and agree it is lower than most prescribe. I'd like to add that it is a good idea to spread protein intake throughout the day if possible.
I see the urge to tinker with everything to come up with the perfect meal plan or whatever but it need not go past reasonable. I'd like you to give opinion on cooking. I believe cooking your own meals teaches you a lot about the food you eat and how to nourish your body. Most don't know how restaurants cook, what proccessed foods they eat or even the quantities they are eating. If you prepare the food you eat and make an effort to keep the food real you are doing good. It may not be GTO food but its good enough.
If you must know i get fresh eggs straight from the countryside, local meat from the butchers and fish from the market. I prepare the vast majority of my own meals.
There is no "position against a macronutrient" advocated here. There is only discussion of what is necessary and what is wasteful or harmful. You have to understand the context in which I'm seemingly "attacking protein". We've been brainwashed as a society to be worried about protein. Most people believe that we have to consciously plan our meals in order to meet our protein needs, which as I have shown is complete nonsense. Food items are often marketed with their protein levels, which is hilarious to me. The average person eats twice the protein that their body can actually utilize. And of course, when people think about protein they think about meat first, because we were told in the past that meat protein was superior to plant protein, which isn't true and even though this myth has been laid to rest in the scientific literature, it's still very much alive in popular culture where people love to hear good things about their bad habits.
I am not in favor of micro-managing a diet. I don't believe in counting anything. I'm not advocating tinkering with macro-nutrients at all. When I eat food, I don't see carbs, fats and proteins. I see food. I believe in eating clean, nutrient rich whole foods until you feel satisfied. As for cooking and preparing your own meals, that's a no brainer. The more control you have over the ingredients in the food you eat, the better. But the act of cooking your own meals isn't more important than the actual foods that you choose to eat regularly. Anthony Bourdain knows a lot more about cooking than I do, but he's the one who has to take statins. Lots of people who cook almost all their meals live to eat, they don't eat to live. All I can say about this is echo Seneca when he said, omnis stultitia laborat fastidio sui-- folly is its own burden.
So you are saying plant based proteins are superior to animal protein. Or are you outright saying milk, chicken and pork is bad? If the latter i'd like to read up on some research. Research be bulshit on both sides, all in the game. Minorities can be big markets too if you can market to them specifically. I just heard the other day from a local producer there isn't much market for vegan products. The first vegan shop in my city had to close doors and move online. It speaks to people being brainwashed but it also speaks to there not being that much truth to animal protein being detrimental to ones health.
Actually, in my post which you have quoted here I am not saying that plant protein is superior to animal protein. What I said is that animal protein was definitely not superior to plant protein, which is different, because it leaves the possibility that they might be equally good. (I don't believe this to be the case and I'll get to that in the second paragraph). Here I was explaining to you the context in which it's important to talk about protein and how people believed for decades that meat protein was superior to plant protein. The idea here was that plant proteins didn't have a complete amino acid profile and you had to carefully combine different plant foods in order to reach adequate protein levels. This was proven to be a myth and some people still believe this today and it's largely why people think plants are inferior to animal foods.
In my previous post that you quoted, I did present the case that plant protein was shown to be healthier than animal protein in the best scientific studies we have to date. One important thing to note is that I believe there is a lot more to it than just the protein itself: what comes with the protein matters, and I've touched on this in this thread before; it's not just what you eat that matters, it's what you're not eating in the process as well. Now, I linked a very recent study to you, done by Harvard scientists and published in a very reputable journal. I bolded the conclusion to be sure you couldn't possibly miss it. You haven't yet commented on it, but you're asking me for such research here. Why is that? Second problem here is that you say "research can be bullshit on both sides", which really doesn't say anything except the obvious. Perhaps you were saying this so as to be able to easily dismiss the study, I don't know. What I do know is that you haven't presented this other side. If you're implying that there are studies showing the opposite result and so we shouldn't trust this one, well, if you can provide that study, we can examine the quality of both and see which one we should trust the most. Easy enough. So, you shouldn't be asking me for (more) research here. I've already linked a relevant paper and I've linked to a lot more data showing the detrimental effects of animal products in this thread and you haven't responded to any of it yet. The ball is obviously in your court, not mine. If you do provide me with studies that seem to contradict the results of those that I've linked, then I have no problem with compiling more research and sharing it here, but I won't waste time building a stronger case when you've done no work at all yet.
Your last point is honestly not worth addressing. You are drawing a ridiculous conclusion based on incomplete information. "Veganism isn't popular where I live, therefore plant-based diets mustn't be nutritionally sound". Okay, to be fair you are not saying exactly this, but it's very close. What you said includes two logical fallacies: False Cause and argument from popularity. It's also an obvious non sequitur to say that this relates to protein specifically. There could be a plethora of reasons as to why that is. How about the most obvious: people like the food they are eating, they grew up eating it, their parents grew up eating it, and they haven't found a reason to change it. Well okay, so how are the people doing? You don't say anything about their health and longevity. Isn't that what we want to know? If you had said "in my country we have some of the lowest rates of chronic diseases and we eat a lot of animal protein", that would be very different and something to investigate. Who cares what they are doing if we don't know the results? Well, I've just had a look and Estonia is ranked as the number one country in the world with the highest death rate due to Hypertension. It's also ranked very high in the top countries with the highest risk/death rates for all the major chronic diseases I looked at afterwards, which doesn't come as a surprise. What I have done multiple times in this thread is show that the populations who have the best quality of life and the longest livespans all happen to eat very little animal protein. This is highly relevant and a simple claim which should be very easy to refute if I am wrong. You could start there if you want.
Mortality based on anything will be high in Estonia, go check for alcoholism and drug use for example.
I'm not pro animal based protein or against plant based whole foods. I'm asking because i consider my diet to be healthy and it includes dairy products, eggs, meats. I had my blood tested a few months back and everything was ok. Lipid panel test i think it was. People are different and react differently to different food. My objective isn't to prove you wrong Loco. I'm asking out of curiosity, not to be confused with "taking the other side of the argument". I am not implying anything other than it got harder for me to access vegan products. So. I eat meats and eggs and dairy. Is my health going to suffer because of it down the line and if yes, to what extent ?
That's really impossible for me to say. It depends on too many factors that I'm unaware of about your life. All I know is diet is a big part of overall health. It's the next most important thing after quitting smoking. Genetics play a small part, about 10%. Even if you were to do everything else right, exercise a lot, don't sit all day, don't smoke and don't drink, if every meal is centered around animal products (getting most of your calories from them) and very few plant-based foods, then the predictable consequences are that your health will suffer in the long run.
My advice would be to not wait before a health scare in order to make changes because we have enough data on this, but I know that realistically this is where people tend to change their habits. So, keep getting a regular blood panel done and see how things are going. You don't only want to know your lipids. You want to get your blood pressure checked and you want to get a full blood panel done and keep an eye out on CRP levels, as higher inflammation tends to suggest that you will be more at risk of developing chronic diseases. Hypertension is a completely preventable condition. It's unheard of in populations that live on plant-based diets, even if they drink alcohol on a daily basis.
Edit: Actually, according to the US Burden of Diseases, dietary risk factors and deaths outrank those caused by smoking cigarettes.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
day two without meat or dairy. I feel like shit. Headache and been really tired all day. Hope it doesn't last for too long. I try to eat properly this time, meaning not too much vegan junk food.
On September 06 2016 16:02 spugru wrote:
day two without meat or dairy. I feel like shit. Headache and been really tired all day. Hope it doesn't last for too long. I try to eat properly this time, meaning not too much vegan junk food.
What are you eating spugru?
I did not really notice anything the first couple of days besides more farting. About a week in of zero meat and dairy and I am getting a better grasp on what I should be eating. I have been feeling pretty good and energized. It really can be as simple as sweet potato with some interest in the form of vegetables and fruit and some beans at some point. Cut out vegetable oils as much as possible and just cut out fats as much as possible. It has also been fun to work through these Blue Zone recipes. I also found this recipe for breakfast:
Stick with it spugru! I was worried about how I would feel and also would I recover from training and I feel just nicely full up of energy and glycogen all day long. Just a nice smooth burn. Better cognition. Better skin. Better hair. It has been kind of an adventure venturing through the large bulk section of beans and rice and seeds. I feel like some sort of sorcerer just carrying inventories of all this stuff throwing it into large vats of cooking whole foods. Way cheaper than buying single servings of grass fed ribeyes that is for sure. Hemp seeds are quite expensive though. Makes me want to go on a hemp rant but I don't want to get tooo vegan at this point. Take care man.
Stefan cries in like half of his videos, he turned from a pretty intelligent and coherent anarchist into some weird misogynist guy obsessed about children education who makes videos far too long and boring to watch.
On September 06 2016 16:02 spugru wrote:
day two without meat or dairy. I feel like shit. Headache and been really tired all day. Hope it doesn't last for too long. I try to eat properly this time, meaning not too much vegan junk food.
What are you eating spugru?
I did not really notice anything the first couple of days besides more farting. About a week in of zero meat and dairy and I am getting a better grasp on what I should be eating. I have been feeling pretty good and energized. It really can be as simple as sweet potato with some interest in the form of vegetables and fruit and some beans at some point. Cut out vegetable oils as much as possible and just cut out fats as much as possible. It has also been fun to work through these Blue Zone recipes. I also found this recipe for breakfast:
Stick with it spugru! I was worried about how I would feel and also would I recover from training and I feel just nicely full up of energy and glycogen all day long. Just a nice smooth burn. Better cognition. Better skin. Better hair. It has been kind of an adventure venturing through the large bulk section of beans and rice and seeds. I feel like some sort of sorcerer just carrying inventories of all this stuff throwing it into large vats of cooking whole foods. Way cheaper than buying single servings of grass fed ribeyes that is for sure. Hemp seeds are quite expensive though. Makes me want to go on a hemp rant but I don't want to get tooo vegan at this point. Take care man.
Well I made this random food that consists of rice, potatoes, red lentils, root vegatables and soy strips. I haven't researched anything so I'm not sure if I'm missing something important. I wan't to eat as cheaply as possible. For breakfast I eat wholegrain porridge and for snacks apples and carrots and sometimes rye bread with peanut butter. There are tons of vegan "what I ate today" videos on youtube so I probably watch those and get some idead from em.
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United States. Sep 05 2016 03:13. Posts 9215
