Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 109

random memes appear:








carry on...

On February 28 2019 05:14 Baalim wrote: How could assange bepaid-off?, he has been locked up for years in the Bolivian embassy in the UK, the US is after him, if he helped Trump get elected AND has devastating information against him in his hand why on earth would he be in this situation?

He’s had visitors and internet connection on and off, he’s not completely isolated. Not sure what you mean by ‘why is he in this situation?’ If you mean ‘not rescued by Trump’ it’s because it’s Trump can’t automatically tell the UK or Ecuador to release him, and again, also doesn’t have absolute control over US agencies that would arrest/detain him (at the moment).

On February 28 2019 07:58 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On February 28 2019 05:14 Baalim wrote: How could assange bepaid-off?, he has been locked up for years in the Bolivian embassy in the UK, the US is after him, if he helped Trump get elected AND has devastating information against him in his hand why on earth would he be in this situation? He’s had visitors and internet connection on and off, he’s not completely isolated. Not sure what you mean by ‘why is he in this situation?’ If you mean ‘not rescued by Trump’ it’s because it’s Trump can’t automatically tell the UK or Ecuador to release him, and again, also doesn’t have absolute control over US agencies that would arrest/detain him (at the moment).

All I have to say about this is - lol. I like how you selectively base ur arguments on some facts and completely ignore others. Wikileaks released shitton of CIA documents when Trump got into office, since then the US government started heavily pressuring Ecuador to push Assange out. You either didn't know about that or chose to completely ignore it, but w/e


Stroggoz is right. The lobbyism is the biggest problem when it comes to the US elections, how that is still legal is beyond my mind.


Also Canada's PM was just linked to a huge corruption scandal. There goes another "progressive" thinking leader...

On February 28 2019 10:16 Spitfiree wrote: All I have to say about this is - lol. I like how you selectively base ur arguments on some facts and completely ignore others. Wikileaks released shitton of CIA documents when Trump got into office, since then the US government started heavily pressuring Ecuador to push Assange out. You either didn't know about that or chose to completely ignore it, but w/e

I seriously have no idea what you think my argument is or why you think Wikileaks releasing CIA documents and Assange being wanted by US intelligence undermines it. The entire purpose of the Russians compromising Wikileaks is to release damaging info on the US (and other nations). That the US, but not necessarily the president, want Assange as a result of this is just completely obvious and understandable. Not sure why you think that's some fact I would be purposefully omitting.

You're implying that Trump would do whatever necessary to help Assange, which is false considering it was Pompeo that was the chief of the CIA when the documents were released. Pompeo has been since promoted to chief of staff for the president, meaning he has even more power now.

Actually, the propaganda to portray Wikileaks as an organization which bends to Russia's purposes is the perfect way to sway the American view on their authority.

On February 28 2019 07:58 NMcNasty wrote: Trump can’t automatically tell the UK or Ecuador to release him.

What in the fuck are you talking about? he isn't detained by Ecuador lol, he is hiding in the embassy to avoid extradition to the US.

You are claiming that he conspired with Trumps and russians to get him elected so that he would get visitors and internet while he rots in a fucking embassy, that is absurd.

BTW his internet was stripped away for many months now.



Again, your anti Trump bias is leading you to make ridiculous arguments

On February 28 2019 03:19 Stroggoz wrote: dam you guys are going hard. The russian-interference in election's scandal is another example of propaganda that i'm talking about. It's a very good case study because there are two thing's you can compare it with. America's interference in elections in other countries and media coverage on them. And the interference from rich elites in America's elections, which is incomparably greater than Putin's could be. The elite's in america share very lttle in class interest with anyone else, on issues like climate chage, employment, taxes. Very little media coverage is on their nterference in the elections, but in a free press like democracy now, that's talked about a lot. And yes Democracy now is socialist, which is a very good thing. that means the journalists own and control the mean's of production. Using it as a scare word does not work baal The whole Trump phenomenon has had a significant impact around the world, even in New Zealand it's the focus of much attention from the middle class (professionals). Take a look at what the ceo of cbs said about trump, https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/leslie-moonves-donald-trump-may-871464. All of the stupid things he says generate money for the media, it's great fpr distracting the public. Meanwhile he is doing exactly what the rich want him to do, spending more money on nukes, less on action to deal with climate change, and less on public services. Actually his nuclear policy has barely merrited attention, but it is completely insane.

I've been thinking a lot about cognitive dissonance today and the Russiagate conspiracy propaganda must have caused a lot of it. Think about it just in terms of the sunk-cost fallacy. Imagine you have been following this garbage for two years on MSBNC/CBS etc and you have been pathetically invested in waiting for him to be taken down in this way. The longer it goes, the more you will be likely to shield yourself from contradictory information to justify your investment in this narrative. The anticipation itself must be intoxicating, but I think it has more to do with avoiding the dissonance that comes from believing that you could have wasted all that time and energy and basically have had your attention exploited by profiteers (who are all regime change pushing criminals too).

Of course it's great for Trump and his administration as you point out, but that in itself still doesn't mean the conspiracy isn't credible. I think the easiest way to see that it's propaganda is to take notice of what it is that they omit in their stories, like the fact that the Wikileaks Clinton dump was public knowledge before the supposed Stone/Assange call. No one mentioned it in the Oval Office and no one mentions it in the news. It's like watching Venezuela news and never hearing a single instance of what the sanctions/blockade has costed them, you know right away. Essentially they begin with their conclusion and present only what serves it, omit the rest. They don't need to lie. This is also what I've charged Baal of doing in the past several times. What's interesting is when you can finally challenge someone who is pushing propaganda with what it is that is being omitted, and observe how it creates cognitive dissonance. The dissonance is resolved in all sorts of ways that people don't realize they are engaging in.

We just talked about Jorge Ramos, and it's a great example. The guy probably isn't consciously pushing a biased narrative; he genuinely thinks he did the right thing. But look at the way that he's going to resolve the cognitive dissonance that Blumenthal's question brings below. He uses the method of adding another belief, here it's the one that he could not possibly be guilty of poor journalism or helping to foment an immoral regime change pushed by Trump since he was previously critical of him. Even though it's a logical fallacy, it helps resolve the dissonance that one feels from holding two contradictory beliefs. Memes like those that Baal posted can be another way to do the same thing, by oversimplifying an issue or banalizing it, it brings consistency back. Adding a belief and trivialization are the two ways that people prevent themselves from using the dissonance they experience in order to change their beliefs/behaviors (which is how you'd ideally deal with it). Cognitive dissonance has some pretty significant negative physiological effects, so it's no great surprise that these defense mechanisms exist and are used often.

On March 01 2019 00:25 Baalim wrote: What in the fuck are you talking about? he isn't detained by Ecuador lol, he is hiding in the embassy to avoid extradition to the US.

I never remotely claimed he was being ‘detained’, you’re getting real lazy with your reading and posting.

You are claiming that he conspired with Trumps and russians to get him elected so that he would get visitors and internet while he rots in a fucking embassy, that is absurd.

I threw that out there as one of many possibilities and didn’t have a specific timeframe in mind. This all could have happened years earlier than 2016, and at the moment I’m not making precise claims as to Trump’s involvement. That will be revealed in coming months, but of course people who don’t try will dismiss it all as fake just like they did two years ago with Russian interference in general.

On March 01 2019 02:00 NMcNasty wrote: I never remotely claimed he was being ‘detained’, you’re getting real lazy with your reading and posting.

You said that he cannot tell Ecuador or UK to release him, for them to release him, they would have to be detaining him... they are not, he is hiding in the embassy to run from an US secret indicment.

On March 01 2019 04:09 Baalim wrote: You said that he cannot tell Ecuador or UK to release him, for them to release him, they would have to be detaining him...

Nah the word isn’t used that narrowly in the English language, think ‘released from the hospital’.

Trump doesn't have to tell the UK or Ecuador anything, It is him that is persecuting him.

Oh i forgot to respond to Loco about Bolsognaro's quotes.

They are awful especially so much praise for fascist dictators, so I guess I"m fine with calling him a fascist, personally I'd wait to see what he actually does, hopefully he is all talk

On March 01 2019 08:16 Baalim wrote: Trump doesn't have to tell the UK or Ecuador anything, It is him that is persecuting him.

Assange is wanted by US intelligence agencies as a whole, and is specifically sought after by the Mueller investigation. Trump can’t just say ‘don’t worry about it’, there would be a huge legal battle in the US, not to mention whatever else is going on with other countries, for example the Swedish rape charges.

Even the Mueller investigation can't find the ties of Wikileaks with Russia, even though they have all information on Assange on who he has talked to, what has he talked to about and etc. since day 1 of entering the Ecuadorian embassy.

Regardless of whether the connection exists or not, and how the leaks came to existence, they point to facts.

Swedish rape charges have been long dropped by the "victims" but he could still be arrested by Swedish law enforcement due to him fleeing the charges (absurd law but that's why the charges were dropped anyway, he would get arrested cause he fled due to fake charges and then be extradited to the USA cause of political favors)

Trump has surrounded himself with the people that truly believe the US intelligence is THE SHIT that should control the world and that whoever is not with them is against them and you actually believe a conspiracy that he s a Russian puppet, it is actually amazing.

I dont think you realize how much Trump has fucked Russia passively, by fucking their only allies... Turkey started having stronger ties with Russia and he literally crushed their economy. Tried to push false flag attacks in Syria. Is actually talking to NK which would open window for dialogue with China as well, or in the worst case scenario make NK a puppet of the USA, which is in China's back yard. Russia is experiencing

I'm not saying his actions are good, but they are extremely aggressive and unpredictive

On March 02 2019 00:46 Spitfiree wrote: Even the Mueller investigation can't find the ties of Wikileaks with Russia, even though they have all information on Assange on who he has talked to, what has he talked to about and etc. since day 1 of entering the Ecuadorian embassy.

That they found ties is why they arrested Roger Stone, and want Assange, the information just hasn't been publicly revealed yet. Of course they don't know everything which is why they desperately want Assange for questioning, and proving his guilt is low on the priorities list compared to using him as an informant.

Swedish rape charges have been long dropped by the victims;

Not accurate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/julian-assange-rape-victim-elisabeth-fritz-sweden-drop-investigation-wikileaks-stockholm-british-a7744741.html

the woman who accused Mr Assange of rape has said she was “shocked” by Sweden’s decision to drop the seven-year investigation.

It is a scandal that a suspected rapist can disregard the judiciary and thus avoid trial; Elisabeth Fritz added.

Sweden dropped the charges (more accurate word would be suspended) because there's no way to proceed with the case. If Assange leaves the embassy freely, they could bring them up again.

Trump has surrounded himself with the people that truly believe the US intelligence is THE SHIT that should control the world and that whoever is not with them is against them

Trump is constantly at odds with US intelligence agencies, even aside from the Russian scandal. His stupid tweets and statements constantly contradict them, most recently being that he's 'taking KJU's word' that he had nothing to do with the random kid who got beaten to death for stealing a poster. He's also continuously firing independent minded agency officials in his never ending search for yes-men.

and you actually believe a conspiracy that he s a Russian puppet, it is actually amazing.

Well it is a conspiracy, and it is actually amazing that the US president would effectively be a puppet of our biggest historical adversary. Just keep in mind that you're believing an equal if not larger conspiracy when you believe the opposite. The Mueller investigation is just a complete farce invented by the deep state. All the people arrested are innocent and are being framed. People who pled guilty to their accused crimes are having their confessions beaten out of them. All of the US media is in on it, the narrative is constructed behind the scenes. All the British media too, articles like this one are just entirely fake news:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/21/julian-assange-russia-ecuador-embassy-london-secret-escape-plan

I dont think you realize how much Trump has fucked Russia passively, by fucking their only allies... Turkey started having stronger ties with Russia and he literally crushed their economy. Tried to push false flag attacks in Syria.

Trump is serving up Rojava for Putin, Assad, and Edrogan on a silver platter. Even despite all the evidence of the Trump's administrations connections, his foreign policy actions are the most indicative of collusion. He's openly disparaging NATO and withdrawing troops from key strategic locations despite the objects from basically everyone in US intelligence and our allies. Its absolutely insane for a US president to do this. Throwing some missiles at a mostly empty airstrip or sending angry tweets (crashed Turkish economy??) is overall meaningless.

Just keep in mind that you're believing an equal if not larger conspiracy when you believe the opposite.

You do realize that Trump could've actually gotten help from Russia to be elected and not be their puppet right? Or why would they help Trump win the election you mean? Hmmmm I wonder why?

Also as Stroggoz said, this whole argument is pointless. The lobby is what swings the elections in the USA.

I'm also pretty sure someone from the CIA would put a bullet in him before he actually does any serious damage to NATO ever. The "worst" thing he has done is saying he s going out of Syria, which is actually a good thing for everyone. If you think logically you'd see all of your previous presidents have done much shittier decisions for NATO involving them in retarded wars, that were done for resources and geopolitical power under false pretext that made no sense e.g. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq

Anyway I doubt he ever damages NATO. If NATO disbands, the USA will instantly lose its global leader position - everyone is aware of that. NATO is the main reason petrol dollar exists

All this super conspiracy with russia to... post some Facebook adds and bots in social media? yeah sick election meddling they totally brought Hillary down lol.

On March 03 2019 07:09 Baalim wrote: All this super conspiracy with russia to... post some Facebook adds and bots in social media?

Also to perform cyberattacks and use spies to infiltrate political groups. I don't see how this situation isn't as bad or worse than Watergate, its just Russian hackers are being used instead of lockpicks and flashlights.

But still, it is dumb that bots, memes, and chain emails are so effective. Part of the problem is that its so socially acceptable to just dismiss regular news as being fake. For the right its Jewish controlled deep state, for the far left its an imperialist plot to sedate the proletariat. For the apolitical, its just an excuse to not pay attention so there's more time for video games or TV. Peoples' political exposure, if they have any at all, becomes limited to these tiny social media bubbles telling them what they want to hear. With low amounts of information, they're more likely to make bad voting decisions or just not vote at all which is just fine for someone like Putin since it means they're politically neutralized.

The regular news has made everyone cynical; The public knows they are being lied to and that's one of the consequences; extreme cynacism. Yes there are a lot of bubbles people get themselve's into in the media, especially on the internet. Just take the new york times bubble you seem to be stuck in-they (opinion pieces) beleive that the american government is enforcing democracy around the world. You have to be seriously bubbled to beleive that. Keep in mind that centrists have always been wrong in history, if you are a centrist you should seriously question what you beleive.