Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 124

On May 14 2019 17:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: And yea it would not be a thing in Norway regardless of whether mtf ended up in male or female prisons.

I think you and Rick are totally misunderstanding me. I have nothing against a legal MTF trans to be in a female prison, what I'm against is MEN claiming to be women to get into a female prison.

My point is there is a need for a legal gender with strict requirements to avoid this

Canada doesn't have any requirement thats why Lauren Southern is legally a man (while obviously being a femenine straight woman) just to troll the system, that is obviously ridiculous since a man could do the same and go to women's jail.

Ergo a legal binary gender system with strict boundaries like hormones, surgeries etc is required (what specifically should be required is up to debate).


And yes perhaps Finland can handle non-gendered prison and Icelandics fart rainbows, but for the rest of the world mixing women and men in prisons would be catastrophic.

On May 15 2019 03:56 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On May 14 2019 17:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: And yea it would not be a thing in Norway regardless of whether mtf ended up in male or female prisons. I think you and Rick are totally misunderstanding me. I have nothing against a legal MTF trans to be in a female prison, what I'm against is MEN claiming to be women to get into a female prison. My point is there is a need for a legal gender with strict requirements to avoid this Canada doesn't have any requirement thats why Lauren Southern is legally a man (while obviously being a femenine straight woman) just to troll the system, that is obviously ridiculous since a man could do the same and go to women's jail. Ergo a legal binary gender system with strict boundaries like hormones, surgeries etc is required (what specifically should be required is up to debate). And yes perhaps Finland can handle non-gendered prison and Icelandics fart rainbows, but for the rest of the world mixing women and men in prisons would be catastrophic.

What is a legal MTF trans?

To me it doesn't seem fair for a man to claim himself a woman for some perceived benefit. I can agree with you there.

I think there could be a lot of problems with strict requirements as things currently are. For example, ContraPoints takes hormones regularly but still has a penis and testicles. It is extremely expensive to get a vagina. Where does this fall? I am sure it's an extremely common position for many MTF trans.

21% rape at a bad apple prison in the USA is pretty bad. A lot of that is prison guards as well. The USA prison system is just so totally fucked on so many levels. A woman in a male prison seems to me to be worse than a male in a woman prison but like I said it doesn't seem fair for a non-committed MTF trans to be place in a women's prison. I mean I might consider going MTF trans if I was going to a USA prison but I don't think I would want to take the hormones in order to not go to a male prison.

The more interesting question to me is why Finland can handle non-gendered prisons and why is the USA so fucked up?

On May 15 2019 05:10 RiKD wrote: What is a legal MTF trans?

Thats the discussing we should be having, (many countries already have these requirements for legal sex change), what is not ok is to have no requirements whatsoever like Canada.

I think there could be a lot of problems with strict requirements as things currently are. For example, ContraPoints takes hormones regularly but still has a penis and testicles. It is extremely expensive to get a vagina. Where does this fall? I am sure it's an extremely common position for many MTF trans.

I've heard many bad things about the actual genital surgery so perhaps it shouldn't be a requirement, I dont know but a line has to be drawn and the line shouldn't be easy to cross or go back.

The more interesting question to me is why Finland can handle non-gendered prisons and why is the USA so fucked up?

For the same reason Brazilian prisons are even worse than american ones, the US is simply a more advanced society than Brazil, and Finland is a more advanced society than the US, obviously its a very broad term "advanced" but I think everybody gets what I mean.

On hormones for 1-2 years seems like a reasonable starting point for "true" MTF trans except that would exclude a lot of "real" MTF trans that have not been on hormones for that long for whatever reason. What about the MTF trans that don't want to have their penis and testicles removed? I don't know if we are qualified to have this discussion.

On May 14 2019 18:07 Obannon112 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 14 2019 17:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:   On May 12 2019 21:31 Baalim wrote:   On May 12 2019 11:26 Liquid`Drone wrote: are you guys unironically saying that sweden is the rape capital or whats up with that? It has the highest rape % in all of europe. Sure that stat is skewed because of more reporting and definition of rape, but its not like its relevant to the discussion unless you believe there is no problem if prisons have no gender. It's just that it's kinda weird calling it the rape capital because it's the place that takes rape most seriously. More reporting and a different definition (and stuff like how one person sexually abusing his wife/gf over one year might register as 250 rapes in sweden and 1 rape in many other countries) is why they have those high numbers. I remember doing the calculations some years back at some other forum and iirc the entire difference between Sweden and say, Belgium, would be possible to explain by 10-15 abusive relationships happening in the entire country. Which obviously isn't a big number at all. It's basically just a right wing anti-muslim talking point where it's claimed that 'this statistic is what happens when you get enough muslim immigrants'. Essentially its a complete nonsensical statistic, akin to using prevalence of cross country skis to indicate how in shape a country is or whatever. And also prison rape really isn't a thing over here. It's absurd how that happens in any country pretending to be civilized, tbh. And yea it would not be a thing in Norway regardless of whether mtf ended up in male or female prisons. Feel free to google the rape statistics by ethnicity in Sweden...

I have looked at those rather intensively in the past, and the same thing applies there as to the previous post; because Sweden counts every rape in a given abusive relationship as a separate rape, it is possible for the entire difference in the overall statistic to be explained by a handful of individuals.

One thing is true in all this though - immigrants are significantly more likely to commit what we in Norway define as 'assault-rape', where a woman is attacked late at night walking through a park, often beaten into submission or threatened with a knife or whatever. But that is only a fraction of rapes. (And one where it is very easy to see that a rape happened. ) but a lot of rape is rather the 'girl is passed out at a party, guy who is also drunk rapes her' - and here muslims can actually be under-represented (as they drink less). And stuff like mass groping in cologne was an issue with immigrants. (Although in a similar vein, there has always been plenty of rape happening during Oktoberfest in Germany without immigrants being overrepresented there. )

Basically I'm not saying there is no issue with immigrants coming from less gender-egalitarian countries who have some very negative ideas and attitudes towards women. There is a real issue, and it has to be tackled. But the whole sweden is the rape capital of europe notion is a lie perpetuated by faulty use or understanding of statistics.

debunking misuse of statistics is laudable but there is a hint of denialism in the extreme way you're going about it

maybe it's true it could technically be possible that 10-15 rape relationships could account for all the rapes

but they don't. in 2016 in sweden there were 34 grenade attacks, now think about the availability of a grenade versus a penis, obviously it's asinine to suggest there would ever be a society with half as many rapists as grenade attacks

maybe a start would be to look at a count of the people actually convicted of rape and maybe we can see how many more than 15 it is

furthermore the alcohol thing is actually more dangerous, if you come from a country with a conservative religious background where basically "fun" is haram then being exposed to it in a civilized western country when you have no self-control results in a kid in a candy store.

there was a great webm showing the progression of the swedish rape rate over the last 20 years as they outpaced a bunch of other countries i should find it again

White 16-20 year olds in scandinavia get more out of control drunk than muslim 16-20 year olds do. This is not a controversial statement at all. But anyway. I acknowledged that there is a problem with people from certain regions of the world being more likely to commit assault-rape, and that this stems from them having 'some very negative ideas and attitudes towards women'. But this is way different from the sweden is rape capital of europe cuz of all their immigrants meme. That meme does originate from flawed use and understanding of statistics. Firstly, Sweden's 8.1% muslim population isn't all that much higher than what you find in norway denmark france germany austria netherlands belgium UK, (those countries are all above 5%) and it's significantly lower than what you find in some ex-yugoslavian / countries bordering turkey. Sweden having more than three times the rate of Norway doesn't reflect the immigrant population of the two countries, it reflects different methods of gathering statistics.

Secondly, it's true that it's not 10-15 people accounting for the difference. (btw I didn't say it was 10-15 people accounting for all the rapes, just the difference between other western countries. ) In reality, 'The number of convictions has remained relatively unchanged since 2005, with approximately 190 convictions on average each year.' - with the numbers of rapes reported for those years having been above 6k. Maybe some of those convictions are individuals raping many different women, 'but it isn't'. It's probably more like 120 individual rapes and 70 rape-relationships or something, not delving too deeply into the math right now.

Thirdly, 58% of convictions are from people from outside the european union. This reflects a real problem, and is an issue. But not nearly to the degree those statistics in isolation paints it to be. We know that assault-rape, or rape where the victim did not know the perpetrator, is much more likely to be done by an immigrant. We know that about 80% of all rapes are not reported. And we know that girls are less likely to report rape if they knew the perpetrator, and we know that a conviction is less likely to happen if the girl was drunk. It's not a stretch to assume that a bigger % of the unreported rape is white people because they are more likely to drunkenly rape a girl that they knew, although you might also argue that it's more likely that there is no conviction when the perpetrator is unknown, however likewise more likely to be no conviction when the girl was drunk.. (Although swedish consent laws have changed lately, so maybe that latter point won't be true for future statistics. )

Basically, you can hold on to your beliefs that immigrants are more likely to commit rape (lotta reasons for this, some cultural) without accepting the clearly bogus /incomparable statistics used to create the rape capital of europe meme. The scientific attitude here would be something akin to 'the data is really murky and it's impossible to draw any conclusions', not 'sweden has become rape capital of europe due to their hospitable attitude towards immigrants hailing from backwards cultures'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden is good, some of the sources cited are swedish.

are you speculating that white people are more likely to have acquaintances or that they're more likely to rape them? I don't understand this point, what does that mean white people are more likely to drunkenly rape a girl that they knew? how does drinking alcohol protect a girl from being raped by a brown person... I would think someone being from a culture that doesn't share western values would make them more likely to take advantage, generally, than the people who were brought up in western society

number 1 in the context of drunk 16-~23 year olds, which is where I speculate that a lot of the statistically hidden rape happens. that's just anecdotal tho tbh. There are plenty of kids with immigrant backgrounds etc attending parties and drinking, but the afghani asylum seeker or whatever is unlikely to be present.

On May 15 2019 05:43 RiKD wrote: On hormones for 1-2 years seems like a reasonable starting point for "true" MTF trans except that would exclude a lot of "real" MTF trans that have not been on hormones for that long for whatever reason. What about the MTF trans that don't want to have their penis and testicles removed? I don't know if we are qualified to have this discussion.

I dont think im qualified either, all I wanted was the agreement on the fact that there is a neccesity for binary legal gender with strict boundaries... that was the litmust test, people who don't agree are very often deeply dogmatic.

illegal immigrants will comite more crimes than the avg populations in most cases because illegal immigrants are usually economic migrants, which means they live in a less advanced society and are also from lower class in their native country.

That fact is very often stoked to create racism but it shouldn't, its not a matter of race (genes), its a matter of economic status and culture, a muslim family will assimilate within 1 generation almost perfectly into its new host society.

Obviously the right is wrong since they make it about race and xenophobia, but the left also is wrong, when they flat out deny facts like these (to not give tools to stoke racism, as Drone himself has admitted of doing), so they often end up believing that migration is not an issue while its obviously an issue when migration occurs at a higher rate than a society can assimilate them, so they create tight communities and isolate themelves as a culture in the country perpetuating their poverty.

I've said it a few times already but I think left wingers ironically radicalize people to the right when they flat out refuse to acknoledge certain problems, like if you are concerned about migration policy the only way to go is right, I suppose the hard right also radicalizes people to the left but I dont think its nearly as often, not sure, hard to gauge.

On May 15 2019 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: number 1 in the context of drunk 16-~23 year olds, which is where I speculate that a lot of the statistically hidden rape happens. that's just anecdotal tho tbh. There are plenty of kids with immigrant backgrounds etc attending parties and drinking, but the afghani asylum seeker or whatever is unlikely to be present.

yeah geeze, these Swedish youth, I'm fed up, they're famous worldwide for being conservative, racist, and xenophobic and not associating with people outside their skin color. ESPECIALLY the youth in Sweden. this is well known

it seems like what you're saying is that there are these "hidden rapes," which are probably a bunch of drunk young people fucking and would fall under Swedish law treating rape more seriously than other countries, or too seriously, but without getting into that

and that white people, native Swedes, are more likely to have the opportunity to hidden rape. what I'm saying is that brown non-Swedes are probably more likely to TAKE the opportunity to hidden rape because they commit more non-hidden rape (rape that we have statistics for that are grounded). so given that this is speculation to begin with I don't see how you can know that even if what you say is true, that the proclivity to rape given the opportunity wouldn't still make foreigners over-represented in rapes that we don't have statistics for or accounting for, just as they're over-represented in the ones we actually do have statistics for...

I'm not even contesting that immigrants commit more rapes? I'm saying it's impossible to know what the actual ratio is (the numbers don't say anything about that because 80% of rapes are not reported) and I'm saying the statistic claiming Sweden has twice as many rapes per capita as belgium or 3.5 times as many rapes per capita as norway is not because of the bigger immigrant population but because the statistics aren't gathered in a similar manner. That is fairly straight forward no?

Then, anecdotallyI live in a scandinavian city and Norway follows very similar trends as sweden. I know several girls that have been raped while passed out (and even more under a swedish definition where counting 'too drunk for the consent you gave to be regarded as consent' - but even if you don't personally regard this as a 'real rape', then it's still part of the swedish statistics, which is what we are discussing) and in every instance I know of, it was a white norwegian guy who did it. I also read papers, and while I don't personally know anyone who has been victim to 'assault-rape', those are done by immigrants more than 95% of the time. (Sometimes white christian eastern europeans though).

And asylum seekers generally being unlikely to attend private parties doesn't have anything to do with xenophobia, it has something to do with them not knowing natives and you don't get invited to private parties unless you know natives. I do however believe that they are overrepresented in 'club-groping'-stats (not that those are counted), but again, anecdotal stories back up that impression.

On May 15 2019 21:11 Baalim wrote: a muslim family will assimilate within 1 generation almost perfectly into its new host society.

Huutista.

Even the left in Norway are shocked about how naive swedish politicians and media are.

okay thanks drone
I thought you were trying to give an impression like, 10% of the population, commits 50% "assault" rapes but only 5% of secret hidden rapes so no problem
my mistake

On May 16 2019 12:56 VanDerMeyde wrote: Even the left in Norway are shocked about how naive swedish politicians and media are.

The swedish left did an 180 on immigration in late 2015.. Following syrian refugee crisis they were all 'borders are open' then a couple months passed and then they were like 'god damnit we absolutely fucking hate to admit this but we were wrong, we can't accept as many people as we thought we could, (but we still think the refugees are good people who deserve our help - we just can't help them all). And then it has been significantly more restrictive since then. I've definitely linked that in some politics thread on this site before.


(there are non-asylum seeker immigrants too, so those numbers haven't fluctuated equally much, but there's still been a massive change.

As for the media, swedish source, but even during the period of peak swedish naivetee, (2010-2015) the top 4 newspapers in sweden had more than twice as many negative than positive articles about immigration and immigrants

There's been a real issue with too many voices critical of immigration being called racist. Sometimes (the base of sweden democrats) it's correct, sometimes it's not, but then the tactic of always describing it as such is obviously wrong. And there have been a couple absolutely idiotic attempts at deliberately not reporting some immigrant sexual assault stories (which the norwegian left attacked).

so like I'm not saying your statement is all that wrong, but it's more like, it used to be right, now significant elements of that left has had a period of introspection and realized that 'while their heart was in the right place', they still made big mistakes.

On May 15 2019 05:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: I have looked at those rather intensively in the past, and the same thing applies there as to the previous post; because Sweden counts every rape in a given abusive relationship as a separate rape, it is possible for the entire difference in the overall statistic to be explained by a handful of individuals.

Wait, why would they not count it as a separate rape, I don't understand? Years of abuse is obviously much worse than a single instance, and obviously, the guilt should be diminished as the victim is at fault in those scenarios to some extent, considering they don't leave the abuser.

That is some good points, Eivind

On May 16 2019 11:58 Obannon112 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 15 2019 21:11 Baalim wrote: a muslim family will assimilate within 1 generation almost perfectly into its new host society. Huutista.

had to google that.

I mean a muslim family living among its host society, not a muslims family living in an isolated muslims community, that obviously greantly increases the time it requires for assimilation.

Sadly left and right both are in love with identity, race & roots, so the left opposes concepts as assimilation and gentrification, its so bizarre to me that so many people cling to such valueless things as heritage.