Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 141

you guys are disproportionately outraged over a movement that while is violent-is incomparable in it's violence compared to virtually anything else that can be called violent. I don't think antifa is very constructive, and i dislike the movement since the media paints all anarchists as being like antifa, essentially if i say im an anarchist i'll be associated with them instantly by your average person. People now also seem to think leftists don't support free speech when the vast majority do support it. But i don't really focus any energy or outrage on this antifa movement, as far as i can tell antifa have not murdered anyone yet. It really makes no sense to care that much about this movement and the bad things they do when there are so many worse things being done to us in the world, and it's difficult to tell weather they are winning on strategy. In my view they arn't-particularly it's harmful for the left when it comes to the media.

I don't condone beating up small gay Asians who take pictures of political rallies. But here's some uncorroborated hearsay from antifa Twitter accounts about why he deserved it. Of course I support corrective violence but I in no way condone alt-right propagandists getting what's coming to them.

On July 04 2019 07:13 Stroggoz wrote: you guys are disproportionately outraged over a movement that while is violent-is incomparable in it's violence compared to virtually anything else that can be called violent. I don't think antifa is very constructive, and i dislike the movement since the media paints all anarchists as being like antifa, essentially if i say im an anarchist i'll be associated with them instantly by your average person. People now also seem to think leftists don't support free speech when the vast majority do support it. But i don't really focus any energy or outrage on this antifa movement, as far as i can tell antifa have not murdered anyone yet. It really makes no sense to care that much about this movement and the bad things they do when there are so many worse things being done to us in the world, and it's difficult to tell weather they are winning on strategy. In my view they arn't-particularly it's harmful for the left when it comes to the media.

I think you make a fair point. What's so troubling about "antifa" is that free speech was a mostly settled debate; people have a right to express their opinions without violence against them. But now, we have this group of people who beat up people who think differently, with non fringe support by radical leftists (see Loco) who use this cheap rationalization "I'm against violence but beating up fascist is ok, and most important I GET TO DECIDE who is a fascist deserving of beating".

It's like someone was bringing back slavery again.

Also agree, crazy leftist and mainstream candidates pandering to the more radical wing of their party are handing Trump re election in a silver plate.

All he has to do is repeat "economy, jobs, MAGA" while pointing at the "radical democrats" to win the re-election.

Leftist historian with 160,000+ subscribers gets his channel deleted despite having no strikes, this right after uploading a video criticizing Jordan Peterson's understanding of Nazism.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If right-wingers mass-flag leftists and Baal doesn't see it talked about on Quillette or right-wing Twitter, has censorship really occured? thinkingemoji.jpg

On July 04 2019 07:13 Stroggoz wrote: you guys are disproportionately outraged over a movement that while is violent-is incomparable in it's violence compared to virtually anything else that can be called violent. I don't think antifa is very constructive, and i dislike the movement since the media paints all anarchists as being like antifa, essentially if i say im an anarchist i'll be associated with them instantly by your average person. People now also seem to think leftists don't support free speech when the vast majority do support it. But i don't really focus any energy or outrage on this antifa movement, as far as i can tell antifa have not murdered anyone yet. It really makes no sense to care that much about this movement and the bad things they do when there are so many worse things being done to us in the world, and it's difficult to tell weather they are winning on strategy. In my view they arn't-particularly it's harmful for the left when it comes to the media.

yeah its not that Antifa has caused much harm, not a single death as you say but what is troubling is the level of acceptance, attacks on journalists are now being condoned by a big portion of the media, freedom of speech is seriously waining in all fronts.

This is a big topic here because we have Loco as an antagonist, if we had a right wing extremist talking about ethnostate that would probably be the focus of discussion instead.

On July 04 2019 20:18 Loco wrote: Leftist historian with 160,000+ subscribers gets his channel deleted despite having no strikes, this right after uploading a video criticizing Jordan Peterson's understanding of Nazism. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If right-wingers mass-flag leftists and Baal doesn't see it talked about on Quillette or right-wing Twitter, has censorship really occured? thinkingemoji.jpg

You are a hypocrite, you support mob censorship, this is exactly what you support, you just don't like it when your own weapons are used against you.


I am the one who oppose this, I denounce anyone reporting or involved in this kind of thing, of course I'm not aware of every fucking channel and publication especially of politics I dont follow, thanks for assuming I'm omniscient, but I'm not.

I like Andrew Yang, he seems more data than ideologically driven and even if he is offering free money I think he is less of a cynic just trying to rake the votes like the other candidates, he also seems the only democrat not playing identity politics, he even condemned the beating of Andy Ngo.

UBI is quite interesting, if the market indeeds naturally syphons to the top it could be an effective fix, however other social programs have to go and he focuses more on taxation, I mean yeah fix the loopholes so that mega corporations can't cheat the taxman, but besides that the funding has to come from the reduction of social programs and serve as a social safety net but without the inherent inefficiencies and corruption of the state.

He loses major points by doing the old "Tax amazon and we will do all these wonderful things", its bullshit, just say it about taking from other programs, naturally it will be less popular, he also said he wants 16yo to vote... yikes.

ubi is hugely inefficient-though better than nothing i guess. Doesn't really make sense to give people above median wage another 1k. i did some basic math and his policy is 4.2trillion$ a year. What is far more efficient is simply pursuing sound macro-economic policy, a green new deal for example to create near full employment and this would empower the working class bargaining power, real wages would rise. if say the unemployment rate was 2% and you handed out 2k a month to unemployed people this would cost far less. And say spending a few trillion on a green new deal would have the effective of increasing total aggregate demand, so it wmay not cost much if anything in the end. behold the magic of keynesian economics.

The idea that machine learning is going to create a massive unemployment rate is a myth as well, essentially a lie that originates from Obama to shift blame onto machines rather than economic policy. anyone can see productivity rates have grown massively over the 20th century while unemployment hovers around 0-10% most of that time, essentially outside of depressions which economists know how to fix anyway.

I don't see bernie using identity politics and he has the best economic solutions imo.

wtf... how do you get 4.2T?

Yes it makes a lot of sense, and yes its less efficient "wasting" it on people earning above median but its all abou incentives, first of all you have to be 18+ to get UBI to not incentivize irresponsible breeding, also if you set an income line or even worse, unemployment as the only qualifier then you incentivize to remain in that income level or unemployed.

Spend a trillion on the green deal, where do you get that trillion from? As I said Yang is being dishonest when he claims that taxing amazon will do it, fixing the tax code on corporations won't even bring 10% of the money needed, you need to massivly cut programs and that is the point of UBI, give cash instead of shitty subsidies.

I think Bernie actively tried to not fall into identity politics, I remember his speeches when he was talking about not electing women just because they are women, but I think the party is so deep into this that he has surrendered a bit to it, his speeches about working class have more latino references, that being said he is one of the best democrats in this area, not that its a high bar though. I disagree that his economic plans are viable, he was one of those that talked about giving healthcare to all illegal immigrants which I think we can agree that is not possible.

more around 3 trillion$ if your 18+, this really simple multiply pop of 250,000,000 by 12,000.

Wait
The US doesn't have Value Added Tax? What?
I guess it was one of the reason for growth and US dominance, companies funnel that money into growth so they don't show profit and pay less taxes, a nice incentive for that.


But explains where the inequality is coming from now

yeah a VAT is a great way of getting government a bunch of money without people getting too pissed off cuz they end up not realizing how high the actual taxation level is :D

People are pretty aware of how VAT works in the EU, they've just come to terms with it......

is called GST tax here, i dislike this tax, essentially it hurts the poor more than the rich since the poor spend everything they have. NZ did not have a VAT, or GST tax until the neoliberals took power.

Just think a simple "tax millionaires, and repeal Trump tax cuts" would be the most effective, wouldn't complicate the tax code, and would be an easy sell to the people in general not just the Democratic base. In any case it does seem nearly impossible that that or any tax proposal will pay for all of these lofty policy goals. There's no way something like raking wall street trades will pay for a complete student debt forgiveness, AND medicare for all, AND a green new deal. Its a shame because someone like Sanders is excellent in every other regard (foreign policy, social issues, honesty, integrity, experience) but I think his economic proposals are actually nutty enough to be disqualifying.

Well it's clear guys know virtually nothing about economics or even common sense. Not going to argue but it's extremely obvious that bernie is one of the few with a just and rationally sound economic plan. The green new deal probably wouldn't even cost anything, it may even generate money out of thin air. the gdp generated from full employment is over 2 trillion$ according to dean baker and a progressive tax boosts gdp as well according to IMF studies. Despite claims of an economic recovery trumps economic policy so far has been a complete disaster, the economy appears to escape from stagnation or recession every 10 years only to lead ever increasingly sized speculative bubbles.

what's wrong with Trump tax cuts?

When you are so lefty evil that even Michele Bachelet, the U.N and the NYT denounce you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/04/wo...Irdt3hz7Eva7uOGupu3njcgiu4m6z3uVO0uPk

I personally despise M. Bachelet, and late is better than never, you can google the report about Venezuela online.

On July 04 2019 23:52 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 04 2019 20:18 Loco wrote: Leftist historian with 160,000+ subscribers gets his channel deleted despite having no strikes, this right after uploading a video criticizing Jordan Peterson's understanding of Nazism. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If right-wingers mass-flag leftists and Baal doesn't see it talked about on Quillette or right-wing Twitter, has censorship really occured? thinkingemoji.jpg You are a hypocrite, you support mob censorship, this is exactly what you support, you just don't like it when your own weapons are used against you. I am the one who oppose this, I denounce anyone reporting or involved in this kind of thing, of course I'm not aware of every fucking channel and publication especially of politics I dont follow, thanks for assuming I'm omniscient, but I'm not.

You know the real funny thing about this particular incident is that this has been done in part by people who thought and argued exactly like you. This was a critique of Jordan Peterson, laughably the ultimate free speech figure in this culture war, and it's clear that a bunch of his fans contributed to this. It wasn't just fascists who flagged the video and got his channel taken down. It serves to show how easily those principles can collapse when faced with the real world and dealing with real emotions opposing the people you don't like.

Unsurprisingly you are drawing all of the wrong conclusions. The video broke none of YouTube's rules and it's in no way comparable to what happened to Crowder and the other shit you get outraged about from right-wing bigots and their right to being bigoted. The historian in question is a social democrat, that is a center-left position in Europe, and he was targeted by people from your tribe because of a fallacy of composition: it was assumed that he was "an extremist" because of his Iron Front icon.

I don't know why you are blatantly lying about your "denouncing" activity: your entire history is up on this website. You only focus on right-wing victimhood shit with the exception of Julian Assange (who is a reactionary anyway). Your sole purpose here is to serve a narrative that your confused understanding of 'leftism' is the true cancer of society. It's so obviously transparent how irrational and biased you are and that is the only reason why I ever started contributing to this forum again, to counter-balance it. An obviously futile activity when it comes to trying to get you to wake up to it, but hopefully it helped others to see it.

By the way, shithead, I never once flagged a right-wing YouTube video or encouraged anyone to do so. That's not "my weapons". That's another blatant lie which you are fully satisfied repeating even when I correct you because you have no integrity. I don't support police and corporate dominance, that's why I support people's actions in the streets. It's very basic stuff if you had taken 10 minutes to try to understand anything about anarchism. Obviously the opposite is true for you, since you are not an anarchist you support police and corporate dominance over people taking control over their lives.

Thing is, if I didn't support people's actions in the streets they would still occur, because people are not ever going to be free of the consequences of their actions. Your idea of "non-censorship" considering that you support the most authoritarian kind of oppression is hypocritical but it's also mythical. Intolerance breeds resistance, end of story. It's a societal immune system that kicks in. It's determined to kick in the same as your body's immune system is determined to kick in to deal with something that threatens your bodily integrity. You can wish all you want that it won't, but it's not going to stop it from doing so, because that's its function. You're not upset at my hypocrisy, you are upset that your beliefs can't conform to reality.

On the subject of integrity, did you apologize for spreading far-right propaganda that has been debunked? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/milkshakes-thrown-in-portland/