Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 142

On July 05 2019 08:53 Stroggoz wrote: more around 3 trillion$ if your 18+, this really simple multiply pop of 250,000,000 by 12,000.

yeah obv... but the US population is 327.2 million according to google

On July 05 2019 19:21 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On July 04 2019 23:52 Baalim wrote:   On July 04 2019 20:18 Loco wrote: Leftist historian with 160,000+ subscribers gets his channel deleted despite having no strikes, this right after uploading a video criticizing Jordan Peterson's understanding of Nazism. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If right-wingers mass-flag leftists and Baal doesn't see it talked about on Quillette or right-wing Twitter, has censorship really occured? thinkingemoji.jpg You are a hypocrite, you support mob censorship, this is exactly what you support, you just don't like it when your own weapons are used against you. I am the one who oppose this, I denounce anyone reporting or involved in this kind of thing, of course I'm not aware of every fucking channel and publication especially of politics I dont follow, thanks for assuming I'm omniscient, but I'm not. You know the real funny thing about this particular incident is that this has been done in part by people who thought and argued exactly like you. This was a critique of Jordan Peterson, laughably the ultimate free speech figure in this culture war, and it's clear that a bunch of his fans contributed to this. It wasn't just fascists who flagged the video and got his channel taken down. It serves to show how easily those principles can collapse when faced with the real world and dealing with real emotions opposing the people you don't like. Unsurprisingly you are drawing all of the wrong conclusions. The video broke none of YouTube's rules and it's in no way comparable to what happened to Crowder and the other shit you get outraged about from right-wing bigots and their right to being bigoted. The historian in question is a social democrat, that is a center-left position in Europe, and he was targeted by people from your tribe because of a fallacy of composition: it was assumed that he was "an extremist" because of his Iron Front icon. I don't know why you are blatantly lying about your "denouncing" activity: your entire history is up on this website. You only focus on right-wing victimhood shit with the exception of Julian Assange (who is a reactionary anyway). Your sole purpose here is to serve a narrative that your confused understanding of 'leftism' is the true cancer of society. It's so obviously transparent how irrational and biased you are and that is the only reason why I ever started contributing to this forum again, to counter-balance it. An obviously futile activity when it comes to trying to get you to wake up to it, but hopefully it helped others to see it. By the way, shithead, I never once flagged a right-wing YouTube video or encouraged anyone to do so. That's not "my weapons". That's another blatant lie which you are fully satisfied repeating even when I correct you because you have no integrity. I don't support police and corporate dominance, that's why I support people's actions in the streets. It's very basic stuff if you had taken 10 minutes to try to understand anything about anarchism. Obviously the opposite is true for you, since you are not an anarchist you support police and corporate dominance over people taking control over their lives. Thing is, if I didn't support people's actions in the streets they would still occur, because people are not ever going to be free of the consequences of their actions. Your idea of "non-censorship" considering that you support the most authoritarian kind of oppression is hypocritical but it's also mythical. Intolerance breeds resistance, end of story. It's a societal immune system that kicks in. It's determined to kick in the same as your body's immune system is determined to kick in to deal with something that threatens your bodily integrity. You can wish all you want that it won't, but it's not going to stop it from doing so, because that's its function. You're not upset at my hypocrisy, you are upset that your beliefs can't conform to reality. On the subject of integrity, did you apologize for spreading far-right propaganda that has been debunked? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/milkshakes-thrown-in-portland/

mass flagging or "the street" is the same thing, its mob rule, you would support leftist mass flagging taken a right-wing channel too, those people flagging are just like you, not like me.

Baal: "I do not support censorship"
Loco: "But Sam Harris and JBP did support censorship"
Baal: "well I don't"
Loco: "But these mass flaggers are censoring"
Baal: "well I dont support them, I denounce their actions"
Loco: "how come you didn't complain when this particular small leftist channel got banned"
Baal: "Well I didn't know of its existence, but thats bad, thats why we need freedom of speech"

Any more questions regarding freedom of speech? jesus its like the 10th time we've gone over this.

So what is your angle here? they didn't throw cement-milkshakes but they did use crowbars, batons, mace and rocks? is that even a point?

On July 05 2019 19:21 Loco wrote: Intolerance breeds resistance, end of story. It's a societal immune system that kicks in. It's determined to kick in the same as your body's immune system is determined to kick in to deal with something that threatens your bodily integrity.

The "body's immune system" kicking in to purge society of degenerates.... I wonder where have I heard that kind of rethoric LOL

You just make it very difficult not to mention the horseshoe theory LOL

False conversation that doesn't represent my criticism, false quote and the usual straw man and false equivalence. And still no apology for spreading misinformation designed to advance the far-right's agenda to fool gullible and uneducated people into thinking that the left is inherently more violent than them. No surprise there, it's been clear whose side you're on ever since I revealed that you take your anti-left talking points from an actual fascist who taught you everything you know about socio-economic issues. (Hint: your side is not the "independent" side.)

Fascists: want to homogenize society based on nothing but prejudice and torture and kill everyone who stands in the way.
Anti-fascists: want to give everyone including their enemies free health care, a free home, a free education, and want to make society less threatening to vulnerable people by fighting those guys off when they organize.
Baal: Those two are LITERALLY the same thing. Fighting is a fascist tactic, checkmate anarchists. I am very smart, independent and non-political -- just like my allies!


You know, it really doesn't look good when you start desperately putting your lies in bold character. It makes you look like a deeply authoritarian ideologue. You're essentially making the point that I don't know what I support, that no matter how many times I say I don't support something, my agency is trumped by your belief to the contrary even though you have zero evidence to back up what you believe is true about me, just some very poor logic -- the same kind of logic that led those free speech warriors to engage in a mass-flagging campaign against someone they deemed to be dishonest and extreme with zero evidence. Unlike you, when I criticize the unnecessary violence that you wish to impose on others, I present evidence.

I will make my point one last time: this isn't about one leftist channel that you didn't know about, this is about your authoritarian worldview and your entire history here on this website of making arguments that paints right-wingers and bigots as the real victims in society today. Over and over again, above all else. When have we ever been able to count on you to give us a full picture of what is actually going on about a particular issue? Never. What could we expect when you exist in those right-wing echo chambers only? You can't even consume any leftist content, you tune off after a few seconds once your prejudices are triggered. You know how many hours of right-wing content and "radical centrist" content I consumed? A lot. I know my enemies, you don't know yours. You only know a caricature. At least people like Tim Pool and Andy Ngo have the excuse of being ignorant grifters because it's profitable. But you do this shit for free, it amazes me.

So what is your angle here? they didn't throw cement-milkshakes but they did use crowbars, batons, mace and rocks? is that even a point?

The point I think is that you are a confused and willfully ignorant mouthpiece for the far-right and everyone who respects themselves should take what you say with a huge grain of salt. Even when I showed that the old dude in a fucking fedora was looking for trouble with his shit-eating grin and his own fucking baton you had nothing to say. You want to know who really radicalizes people and feeds into their bigoted beliefs, sometimes turning them into fascists? It's people like you who first of all support the socio-economic structures that create these conflicts, and who indignantly and uncritically spread this kind of shit and normalize a hatred for leftists because presumably there are outliers that you feel strongly opposed to. Does Stroggoz do that? He sees the same outliers as you do, and he doesn't support the movement, but he doesn't react like you, because he's not willfully ignorant, and he doesn't actually want people to be hurt, unlike you.

If you were making a reasoned case that society's immune system is over-reacting right now, I would be listening. But you're not making that case. You're making the case that it doesn't even need an immune system. Why? Because you have faith that it can rely on philanthropy and the police to prevent the absolute dystopia that is facing human civilization in the upcoming years. Your faith is misplaced, and unless you are a true believer, you will see for yourself sooner or later. (Or maybe you won't, since free market fundamentalism is unfalsifiable...)

On July 05 2019 16:17 Stroggoz wrote: is called GST tax here, i dislike this tax, essentially it hurts the poor more than the rich since the poor spend everything they have. NZ did not have a VAT, or GST tax until the neoliberals took power.

We have one of the lowest VAT here compared to other countries part of the EU ( "just" 20%) so there was an opinion drill a few years back on how people would react to an increase of the VAT... there were politicians explaining how it would actually be beneficial to the population, thats what the whole situation with DN explaining how more rake is better reminded me of, how do people like that manage to sleep without drugs

Long story short, everyone was aware that the VAT was getting stolen by people (usually it was "given" back at the end of the year as a tax credit) so nothing happened

that fake conversation was no strawman, it is a precise condensation of what happened.

I believe in freedom of speech, you dont, and you claim JBP/Harris and the people flaggint the video also don't, so what? I don't give a shit if they don't, I do for the 100th time.

FREE as in "we leftists are going to pay for all of this shit" or FREE as in, we are going to use the state as a proxy of force to coherece everyone into pooling the money so in the end you are paying for it anyway?

I'm not misrepresenting what you support, you have explicitly supported corrective violence thowards what you deem fascists, also you think debating them isn't productive, that deplataforming is the correct way so you supported the Antifa riots in the Milo and JBP talks.

Yeah that forgot to comment on the old dude with the baton, yeah he got there with violent intentions and got beat up fine by me but Andy didn't though.

On July 05 2019 22:21 Loco wrote: Does Stroggoz do that? He sees the same outliers as you do, and he doesn't support the movement, but he doesn't react like you, because he's not willfully ignorant, and he doesn't actually want people to be hurt, unlike you.

Stroggoz and I have different views, I assume he seems right-wing extremist as a greater threat than left-wing extremism and I don't, we haven't had an ethno fascist dictatorship in like 70 years, but the soviet union fell in 91, we have North Korea , Cuba and Venezuela, and these will fall on deaf ears because you see these two ideologies not as both terribly destructive as I do, but one as pure evil and the other just one nudge away from utopia.

On July 05 2019 23:40 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2019 16:17 Stroggoz wrote: is called GST tax here, i dislike this tax, essentially it hurts the poor more than the rich since the poor spend everything they have. NZ did not have a VAT, or GST tax until the neoliberals took power. We have one of the lowest VAT here compared to other countries part of the EU ( "just" 20%) so there was an opinion drill a few years back on how people would react to an increase of the VAT... there were politicians explaining how it would actually be beneficial to the population, thats what the whole situation with DN explaining how more rake is better reminded me of, how do people like that manage to sleep without drugs Long story short, everyone was aware that the VAT was getting stolen by people (usually it was "given" back at the end of the year as a tax credit) so nothing happened

isn't VAT just sales tax? just a % added to the price of the product

Yes i for sure think the far right is a collosal threat. The far right is a largely global movement and has taken state power in some countries, like brazil. The current president there is openly in favour of fascism, and criticizes the old dictatorship in brazil for not being brutal enough. He also said he'd kill his own son if he turned out to be gay. His economics advisor wants to privitize everything so it's easy to see why trump likes him and the media wants to focus on countries like venezeula instead. Both countries have had disasterous outcomes but it's clear why the media focuses on one and not the other. Antifa doesn't really compare to the president of brazil

and i don't follow europe's situation much but it's got a very strong presence there. It hasn't really come out of the woodwork in NZ and there isn't anything like antifa here as well. But i mean antifa is pretty small compared to say the support for bernie sanders and his european counterparts like the greek ex finance minister yanas varafoukis-which actually have a good chance of taking state power. These progressive movements are what most leftists are supporting and i suspect a lot of antifa people support them too.

I mentioned all of that already and basically had to post two dozen Bolsonaro quotes and explicitly ask him if that was fascistic because he didn't see him as a threat, but even after reading them he didn't think Bolsonaro was a big deal, just that he had "bad ideas" and "'we can't judge until they are translated into action" or some of his typical bullshit. He's too busy worrying about things like antifa punching racist agitators who hang around child rapists and neo-nazis to pay attention to what's going on in his backyard.

On July 06 2019 01:05 Baalim wrote: that fake conversation was no strawman, it is a precise condensation of what happened. I believe in freedom of speech, you dont, and you claim JBP/Harris and the people flaggint the video also don't, so what? I don't give a shit if they don't, I do for the 100th time. FREE as in "we leftists are going to pay for all of this shit" or FREE as in, we are going to use the state as a proxy of force to coherece everyone into pooling the money so in the end you are paying for it anyway? I'm not misrepresenting what you support, you have explicitly supported corrective violence thowards what you deem fascists, also you think debating them isn't productive, that deplataforming is the correct way so you supported the Antifa riots in the Milo and JBP talks. Yeah that forgot to comment on the old dude with the baton, yeah he got there with violent intentions and got beat up fine by me but Andy didn't though.

One important detail: Milo and JBP both fooled you. You promoted both of them as people who have important things to say because you shared a lot in common, and they both turned out to be frauds whose followers are unsurprisingly bad actors, and one of them was an open Neo-Nazi who decided to 'go underground' and who was paid to sow discord and move the Overton window even further right. If galaxy brains like you can be fooled like this, then that gives more weight to my rationale that deplatforming is a valid strategy in certain situations, doesn't it? But again, even if I was completely being misled about this, you could be a careful and intelligent human being and argue against my position without being caught pushing the far-right's agenda. It just turns out that a lot of your worldview is based around a simplistic antagonism which is the same that fuels the far-right minus the race element, and it's much easier to antagonize leftists by doing that, and that's what seduces you; you're not living if your reptilian brain isn't lighting up all the time.

By the way some far-right/alt-right figures have said that they were planning to infiltrate antifa protests as Black Bloc'ers and commit serious unjustifiable acts of violence against people in order to manipulate public opinion further. I know there is no chance you will remember that when the next juicy anti-antifa news rolls around the corner, but don't be surprised when I catch you next time with some facts that you won't like if we are lucky enough to find out about it.

You think the antifa girl whose neck was broken by one of Andy's buddies deserved it? I didn't see you or Andy be bothered by it. She had no weapons and her back was turned, she was leaving a confrontation. Andy's agitating has directly inspired the Atomwaffen Division to create a kill list of leftist journalists. Did he say anything about that at all? What does that deserve, in your humble opinion?

Eh, actually after the quotes you posted Loco I said that he was indeed a fascist, don't you remember?

Bolsognaro is a disgusting maniac but so far he hasn't pursued attacks on any groups, besides the usual shafting of natives in the amazon, if he were to make a move like making homosexuality illegal or hunting down races then I would absolultely reasses the threat of the extreme right wing, in regards to privatization on paper you know I think that is good, however in corrupt countries like ours its usually politicians just splitting up the cake, so I'm not thrilled either.

Another one is Duterte, also another murdering maniac, a militarist that knows nothing else than force with an awful rethoric, however Phillipies is doing fine economically, he is buildint a lot of infrastructure so he hasn't been as mounstrous as someone like Chavez or Maduro.

The most important factor to me to judge how dangerous they are is if they modify the law to re-elect themselves, that is when they become a true dictator and that is when shit his the fan, that is why you won't hear me say much against Mujica for example, if they serve their term and leave then anything awful can be fixed, when they don't is when countries go to hell, so if Bolsognaro or Duterte modify laws to re-elect themselves they will be on the same threat level than left-wing extremist in NK and Venezuela.

On July 05 2019 18:07 Santafairy wrote: what's wrong with Trump tax cuts?

Massive debt, massive deficit, inequality already high, economy was already doing well, just worst possible timing for a handout to the rich. Not unexpected though, completely standard Republican line.

On July 06 2019 01:15 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2019 22:21 Loco wrote: Does Stroggoz do that? He sees the same outliers as you do, and he doesn't support the movement, but he doesn't react like you, because he's not willfully ignorant, and he doesn't actually want people to be hurt, unlike you. Stroggoz and I have different views, I assume he seems right-wing extremist as a greater threat than left-wing extremism and I don't, we haven't had an ethno fascist dictatorship in like 70 years, but the soviet union fell in 91, we have North Korea , Cuba and Venezuela, and these will fall on deaf ears because you see these two ideologies not as both terribly destructive as I do, but one as pure evil and the other just one nudge away from utopia.

It's normal to have different views when one person keeps his head in the sand because the sunlight gets too uncomfortable. You really have no clue. North Korea's Juche has more in common with Nazism (which you think is leftist, so duh) than it does with Cuba and Venezuela. It's hypernationalist racial supremacist authoritarianism. The idea that these three share some common root ideology, and also that this ideology is the same as mine is so funny. Thank god for the Molyneux course in communism from clown school.

On July 06 2019 03:21 Loco wrote: One important detail: Milo and JBP both fooled you. You promoted both of them as people who have important things to say because you shared a lot in common, and they both turned out to be frauds whose followers are unsurprisingly bad actors, and one of them was an open Neo-Nazi who decided to 'go underground' and who was paid to sow discord and move the Overton window even further right. If galaxy brains like you can be fooled like this, then that gives more weight to my rationale that deplatforming is a valid strategy in certain situations, doesn't it? But again, even if I was completely being misled about this, you could be a careful and intelligent human being and argue against my position without being caught pushing the far-right's agenda. It just turns out that a lot of your worldview is based around a simplistic antagonism which is the same that fuels the far-right minus the race element, and it's much easier to antagonize leftists by doing that, and that's what seduces you; you're not living if your reptilian brain isn't lighting up all the time.

Milo was just a guy who appeared in TV shows destroying feminists, I agree with those trashing, those feminist had terrible ideas, I dont consider JBP a fraud at all I think he has many valuable things to say, altho I disagree with many others.

I think I can bring a little clarity to this point between the two of us:

I assume you know who Desmond (the drag kid) is, the kid is clearly on drugs in some videos, knows how ketamine is snorted, was very likely sexually abused etc, so he is the poster boy for the right-wing to expose the degeneracy of the left, obllivious people see it and panic and think the left must be stopped, and it pisses you off that I fall for it, and do the bidding of the extreme-right correct?.Obviously this happens in many subjects, 3yo trans kids, intersectional feminism, fringe lgbt community accepting pedophiles, antifa violence etc.

The thing is, the whole Desmond thing is fucked up and needs to stop, and a big chunk of the left agrees, but can't denounce it because it would give ammo to the extreme-right and people self radicalize, and my worldviews arent based on simplistic antagonism that is just what you see because its shit that needs to be dealt with and that is what you also push, you push Desmond (in this case Antifa violence) and I say NO, and you think that defines me, but it doesnt, that is just my response to you. I think that is why you totally misjudge my positions and even think I watch Alex Jones and stuff like that.


I remember years ago Drone said to me that even if it was a fact he would deny that black people had a lower IQ than whites, and I disagreed with that position even if its one of the main talking points of the most dangerous strain of fascists, maybe I just dogmatically believe in truth and I don't fear fascists as much as you guys do.

On July 06 2019 03:21 Loco wrote: You think the antifa girl whose neck was broken by one of Andy's buddies deserved it? I didn't see you or Andy be bothered by it. She had no weapons and her back was turned, she was leaving a confrontation. Andy's agitating has directly inspired the Atomwaffen Division to create a kill list of leftist journalists. Did he say anything about that at all? What does that deserve, in your humble opinion?

Do you have any video? I haven't seen it.

On July 06 2019 04:55 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2019 01:15 Baalim wrote:   On July 05 2019 22:21 Loco wrote: Does Stroggoz do that? He sees the same outliers as you do, and he doesn't support the movement, but he doesn't react like you, because he's not willfully ignorant, and he doesn't actually want people to be hurt, unlike you. Stroggoz and I have different views, I assume he seems right-wing extremist as a greater threat than left-wing extremism and I don't, we haven't had an ethno fascist dictatorship in like 70 years, but the soviet union fell in 91, we have North Korea , Cuba and Venezuela, and these will fall on deaf ears because you see these two ideologies not as both terribly destructive as I do, but one as pure evil and the other just one nudge away from utopia. It's normal to have different views when one person keeps his head in the sand because the sunlight gets too uncomfortable. You really have no clue. North Korea's Juche has more in common with Nazism (which you think is leftist, so duh) than it does with Cuba and Venezuela. It's hypernationalist racial supremacist authoritarianism. The idea that these three share some common root ideology, and also that this ideology is the same as mine is so funny. Thank god for the Molyneux course in communism from clown school.

So NorthKorea isn't communist, brilliant thanks for the memo, the USSR was also nationalisti and authoritarian, what about them? perhaps you are saying fascism and communism aren't mutually exclusive... all right I can live with that the nazis, soviets and NKs were fasci-communist

On July 06 2019 04:25 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2019 18:07 Santafairy wrote: what's wrong with Trump tax cuts? Massive debt, massive deficit, inequality already high, economy was already doing well, just worst possible timing for a handout to the rich. Not unexpected though, completely standard Republican line.

you know most of the middle class got their taxes cut? want to throw that out because muh drumpf?

I remember years ago Drone said to me that even if it was a fact he would deny that black people had a lower IQ than whites, and I disagreed with that position even if its one of the main talking points of the most dangerous strain of fascists, maybe I just dogmatically believe in truth and I don't fear fascists as much as you guys do.

I didn't really say that I would deny it, more that this isn't 'good' knowledge. Like there are some people who think 'all knowledge is good by default, only by misapplication can it be bad', but my opinion here is more that if this were real, it would be a piece of knowledge with no positive and a lot of very bad potential utility. And for that reason I'm negative towards say, doing research aimed to showcase different intellectual potential of different 'races'. Basically I disagree with the idea of knowledge being apolitical. (Some is, but in most cases our knowledge isn't sufficiently certain for personal interpretation to take no part in the formation or dissemination of it. )

But I do think this is an interesting and difficult discussion.

On July 06 2019 05:50 Santafairy wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2019 04:25 NMcNasty wrote:   On July 05 2019 18:07 Santafairy wrote: what's wrong with Trump tax cuts? Massive debt, massive deficit, inequality already high, economy was already doing well, just worst possible timing for a handout to the rich. Not unexpected though, completely standard Republican line. you know most of the middle class got their taxes cut? want to throw that out because muh drumpf?

Yeah "getting taxes cut" is meaningless compared to the proportional effect of the cuts.

https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-tax-cut-effects-20190529-story.html

The CRS finds that the cuts have had virtually no effect on wages, haven’t contributed to a surge in investment, and haven’t come close to paying for themselves. Nor have they delivered a cut to the average taxpayer.

Best you can say is that Trump cuts at least attempted to throw the middle class a bone by nominally cutting the middle class income tax rate, but that didn't necessarily work depending on how your deductibles and exemptions worked.