On July 17 2019 20:07 RiKD wrote:
I think this was posted already on here but I'm re-posting for the awesomeness:
gives me pure joy, how he caressed him, bought him dinner and then fucked him up in ways he s gonna be thinking about till the end of his life :D
the fact that he led him there, without any deceit, with pure intent right from the start, he opens up with how he doesn't like hypocrites and stays true to it to the end :D
On July 17 2019 15:40 Obannon112 wrote:
lol at comparing Auschwitz to some ICE massage parlor.
I mean, take it to the actual people who survived Auschwitz and their family members and tell them how they're wrong and how you know best.
"Stern, who lives in Berkeley, gripped the microphone with two hands as he told of the horrors he witnessed. Stern survived multiple concentration camps and a deadly forced march from Buchenwald. His parents and eight siblings were all killed by the Nazis.
“I was picked out and put in a cattle car, and my mother and brother were put in a different cattle car. We never saw each other again,” he said. “It was so heartbreaking I didn’t have a chance to cry.”
Stern was liberated by the U.S. Army in 1945 and would later immigrate to the United States. He was filled with gratitude when he finally saw the Statue of Liberty.
“I said, thank you, America,” he said.
In 2017, Stern led a protest against a white supremacist rally in Berkeley, and now he is advocating on behalf of refugees. He said he was appalled by a recent New York Times report that immigration authorities would be conducting raids on Sunday.
“They’ve now sent out ICE to get immigrants. To pick up the refugees. The mothers will be looking for their children. The children will be looking for their mothers,” he said.
“How could this happen in this great country of ours?”"
On July 17 2019 14:52 Loco wrote:
Yes, Baal, destroying infrastructure that serves the sole purpose of committing violence against the most vulnerable people in existence is the exact same thing as shooting up people because they believe they have a right to bodily autonomy. The. same. thing. How can anyone ever doubt this? There's no way we can agree that we have this thing called science that lets us know that clumps of cells literally aren't babies, or that there is a meaningful difference between attacking property and attacking innocent people who make use of their basic human right to bodily autonomy.
Conservative think that the most vulnerable people in existence are babies, so blowing up abortion clinics is the exact same thing for them.
Science doesn't say shit about a clump of cells being or not a baby you dumbfuck, "a human life" or "a baby" are just labels arbitrarely used, you can use those labels at conception, at a cygote, at heaving a heartbeat, brain, nervous system, at birth etc, I'm pro-choice but this pathetic argument is just intellectual dishonesty 101 as usual.
Loco please respond, had the guy shot and killed ICE agents would you denounce him as a mounstrous left-wing terrorists and his actions as heinous crimes or not?
Right, the word "baby" in this context has no specific definition, it does not refer to a very young sentient being, everyone who is not a 'dumbfuck' knows that! It is instead widely open to interpretation, and conservatives are most definitely not misusing it to appeal to people's emotions. Okay, so being pro-choice means we are always just drawing an arbitrary line even when we talk about organic life that is with or without a nervous system according to what you just said specifically. So by that logic, carrots and chickens are both alive and beyond this qualification everything else is obviously arbitrary -- we cannot point to anything in the real world that would inform different moral actions here in the way we make use of them, it is all just a matter of opinion. Please, this isn't the hill you want to die on.
You're stringing two logically fallacious arguments together. You're saying we have to respect people's misconceptions about what is and isn't factual and treat them as if their opinions are equally valid and their aims equally as good as someone who is not anti-choice and empirically-minded. You're saying whether one falls on one side or the other on the abortion issue at every level is meaningless; it's basically just a matter of taste preference rather than a matter of empiricism and human rights. From this you proceed to make a false equivalence between someone who has different beliefs of his own and who acted upon them to target infrastructure as if the destruction of property and the destruction of innocent human life were the same thing. It's disturbing how little ability for critical thought you possess. When you reduce the substance of your argument to its basic level, it amounts to this: "people whose behaviors are oppressive, as long as they have good intentions, are exactly the same as people whose behaviors are not, and who also have good intentions."
Loco please respond, had the guy shot and killed ICE agents would you denounce him as a mounstrous left-wing terrorists and his actions as heinous crimes or not?
People are not one thing or the other. They are complex and changing, and they are the result of processes/forces that they never had any control over. This understanding has to supplant the archaic essentialist duality of good people versus bad people. That duality prevents people from seeing complexity, dynamicity and limits the ability to empathize with others. Once you have reduced someone to the label of monster, or terrorist, you become blind to everything that they are except those things you see, and suddenly, because you have dehumanized them, all options to violently and righteously oppress them become available, and the options to try to understand them and learn from them in order to encourage them to change are closed off. This uncritical use of loaded language is violence that you commit against others and against yourself in the process.
These words carry enormous consequences and should be used carefully, which you are not doing. You are using them to fortify a narrative that serves to sow deep division between people who have more in common with each other than they do with their masters and the overlords of capitalist society. If I were to use them, I would use them in this way:
A person who takes violent action against tyranny is not monstrous or heinous, unless they are torturing their oppressors rather than stripping them of power.
A person who takes violent action to obey tyrants may not be monstrous or heinous, but they are doing something monstrous or heinous, and the fact that they are taking orders does not absolve them of responsibility at the social level. Obeying unjustified and unaccountable power comes with its consequences, always. The chickens eventually come to roost.
These people have chosen this profession and they knew what they were signing up for. There is a lot of suffering involved in these conflicts, but most of it is not on the side of the powerful and those who defend them. That some of them can get hurt or killed is something that makes me sad. But that sadness doesn't blind me to the reality that human life is fundamentally political, and that the political is fundamentally violent, and that some battles have to be fought with the intention to minimize suffering as much as possible. You are a fool for thinking that violence is never justified unless it is against property or as immediate retaliation to physical violence and we will absolutely never see eye to eye on this issue.
I believe if Will van Spronsen had killed the cops he would have committed an enormous mistake. Individual acts of radical violence are born out of desperation, they serve no constructive political purpose. Thankfully, he wasn't that desperate. Why is that? Because he had friends, a family, a community, and worthwhile things to fight and die for. Something about that should strike you very deeply. There is a reason why last year 100% of the extremist killings were committed by right-wingers: because when the family fails, and there is no community, no safety net, these are the results. The left's purpose is to not let that happen, and that is why so few leftists ever commit these crimes. The desire to overcome alienating capitalist relations of subjugation and dominance is based on that understanding. The best way to prevent violence is to work to remove the preconditions for violence in the structures of power that encourage it, it isn't to moralize and blame people for being what they are in an unfree world of determinations and constraints.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
those are a lot of words for no, I didn't expect anything else, you didn't dissapoint lol.
Also yes abortion is about arbitrarely setting a line to try to minimze the suffering in the world taking in consideration the mother and child, but saying "science says a bunch of cells aren't a baby" is simply stupid since science cannot make such a qualification, also "human rights" is a self defeating argument since people believe they are fighting for the human right of the "baby" to not be killed.
Not only you have spoused absolutely deranged extremist political views to the point where drone who was the biggest leftie in the forum for a decade looks like Pinochet in comparison to you, but you also spout these cliché pro-choice arguments that the retarded masses scream at each other... you aged like fucking milk.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 18/07/2019 04:35
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Santafairy Korea (South). Jul 18 2019 05:34. Posts 2233
On July 17 2019 06:32 Loco wrote:
the new normal
are you seriously impugning the integrity of the great journalistic outlet that is CNN?
maybe we should stop encouraging basic cable news to dig up white supremacists and give them attention just to use as a political weapon against drumpf
oh my god. condemning anti-semitic trash? This is LITERALLY FASCISM! if you don't like anti-semitic congresswomen you are LITERALLY HITLER. we are LIVING IN FASCISM ASCENDANT! WHERE'S MY HOMEMADE AR15 AND MOLOTOV COCKTAILS LOL
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
Stroggoz New Zealand. Jul 18 2019 08:03. Posts 5329
You're misinformed about USSR, it was worse in every economic measure under capitalism when it was adopted in the 1990's. I'm no fan of the oppressive state system it had but you can't really make a meme about starvation when the capitalist period in the 1990's was in serious economic decline, and in fact much worse than even the great depression. From ex-cheif economist of the world bank, back when this matter was discussed a lot more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/09/russia.artsandhumanities
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
I used the word 'deviance', not 'degeneracy'. Deviance is a necessary process in any open and dynamic system. Without deviance, or positive feedback, and its counter-acting and complementary negative feedback and their interactions, there would have been no material universe or human evolution. Human deviance is what's responsible for human advancement. It was the people who deviated from the norm and questioned things who ended up seeing and contributing new forms of expression and new knowledge.
'Degeneracy' as you and other right-wingers use it to refer to gender non-conforming people or non-cis people is a value judgment, and it has no merit as a scientific or sociological concept. It's a foundational belief for racists, fascists, eugenists, basically all groups of people that promote extreme violence against people who cannot alter some specific trait or theirs. It is used in defense of an ideal of a stagnant and homogeneous society that could never exist because nature is by design a process of change and diversification.
A more meaningful use of the word would be if it were used to show how uniquely human faculties of imagination and creation granted to us by our neocortex were taken advantage of for oppressive purposes, or strictly wasted because we're no longer even making use of them and instead only use primitive brain structures. That degeneration could perhaps be called devolution. To not be moving and learning is to be devolving, especially in this predatory world of psychopolitics. What could signs of that? That a person's belief system has hardly moved at all in 15 years. That they still don't know what logically valid and sound argumentation is despite claiming to worship reason. Maybe some more: posting the same shitty meme twice, repeatedly making disingenuous arguments and calling people names, being satisfied as a parasite gambling for over a decade, being obsessed with numbers and accumulating money which you will not be able to take to your grave, being an adrenaline junkie, needing the gratification of racing cars and watching gladiator fights. Why be a Socrates when you can be a satisfied pig? Perhaps vulgarity is a better word here though.
Degeneracy is to have so little heart and so little imagination for building a better world that you accept that a child dies every 5 seconds from preventable causes in a world of plenitude. Degeneracy is being so caught up in your own bullshit and your idea of what is normal and necessary that you are okay with people literally dying in 21st century concentration camps and children being separated from their parents and traumatized for life. Degeneracy is believing the real problem are not the people who have put those unimaginably cruel systems in place for profit, they are those who oppose them. Degeneracy is believing that the violence of the slave who rebels against his slaveowner is bad, and that if he wanted to be able to live AND be morally pure, all he had to do was become a slaveowner himself.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On July 18 2019 07:03 Stroggoz wrote:
You're misinformed about USSR, it was worse in every economic measure under capitalism when it was adopted in the 1990's. I'm no fan of the oppressive state system it had but you can't really make a meme about starvation when the capitalist period in the 1990's was in serious economic decline, and in fact much worse than even the great depression. From ex-cheif economist of the world bank, back when this matter was discussed a lot more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/09/russia.artsandhumanities
Are you talking about the anime big tiddie girl meme?
Are you going to remain silent on the Trump rally like you did with the Nazi missile and weapon cache, Baal? Is it just a distraction from the real threat of rampant violent leftist terrorism?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Degeneracy is racing cars, being a parasiting gambler, watching combat sports and reposting memes.
This on the other hand is deviance, the process on an open dynamic system the essence of material universe and evolution the ones that contribute to new forms of expressions and knowledge.
good to know lol.
fyi I dont plan to take a cent to the grave, nor amass wealth or decicate my life to work at all, I know I dont have a problem with trans pepole and believe trans women are women (obv not biologically) and I'm pretty sure I have more trans and gay friends than you do, I'm not okay with childs dying of preventable causes, every year they die in less proportions I just think your narrowsighted ideas would kill many more. And I dont support these detention camps, that is the shit you get when the state and corporations work together.
On July 18 2019 08:05 Baalim wrote:
Degeneracy is racing cars, being a parasiting gambler, watching combat sports and reposting memes.
It's not the things in themselves, it's those things in the context of them being sufficient on their own and excluding everything else that is mind expanding.
fyi I dont plan to take a cent to the grave, nor amass wealth or decicate my life to work at all, I know I dont have a problem with trans pepole and believe trans women are women (obv not biologically) and I'm pretty sure I have more trans and gay friends than you do, I'm not okay with childs dying of preventable causes, every year they die in less proportions I just think your narrowsighted ideas would kill many more. And I dont support these detention camps, that is the shit you get when the state and corporations work together.
You just posted some shitty anti-'communist' propaganda meme that implies that I believe in a fictional society, even though the society I believe in already exists in the world and you refuse to learn anything about it and you refuse to elaborate on why stateless societies are doomed to collapse from within, meanwhile it is okay for you to believe in a fictional capitalist society while capitalism has killed more people than all of the attempts at socialism did and the ecological crisis currently reveals that there is exactly a 0% chance that your free market fantasy will be able to come into existence. You're one to talk about narrowsightedness and hypocrisy.
You don't support detention camps, you just support the forces that keep them running, call people who oppose them terrorists, and find clips of outliers to mock people who protest ICE because that's what people who don't support the camps do, obviously.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Last edit: 18/07/2019 09:22
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Santafairy Korea (South). Jul 18 2019 11:25. Posts 2233
capitalism hasn't killed people any more than shirts have killed people because soldiers were wearing them
It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen
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Stroggoz New Zealand. Jul 18 2019 13:49. Posts 5329
I would agree that capitalism has killed much more than the stalinist type systems, if you count two forms of violence; structural and direct. I wouldn't even go as far as to call the stalinist societies as 'attempts at socialism', they never were even attempts at that. That became clear when those that attempted socialism were quickly crushed by lenin and trotsky. Everyone accepts that the famine in china was caused by a totalitarian state, which we should. That's the conclusion from empirical studies from amartya sen and jean dreze. They argued 16-29.5million died as a result from this, which is quite a bit less than the amount that died in India since it gained independence from simply a lack of basic healthcare and social welfare systems that china had. They estimated that 4 million people a year died in india from simply a lack of having the institutions that china had for these easily preventable deaths.
Look back at the whole history of India during british rule in fact, you find numerous famines, and a bunch of free market fanatics similar to the ones you find today. They critized anyone who wanted to stop the famine because it interfered with the freemarket-supply and demand.
Perhaps we only want to measure direct violence, which is intention to kill for political purposes. I think capitalist societies win this competition as well. America and Britain's imperialistic aggression has resulted in tens of millions of deaths. No one know's the exact amount, but it has to be at least ten million, that's counting every form of aggression, attempts to overthrow governments, military invasions, and backing client states for political oppression. America itself has interfered in over 50 governments, and it's well documented.
---
Lets turn to Trump, does he care about the immigration crisis? No, his environmental policy is creating more immigrants than anything else. Why are hondoruns fleeing to the border? They had a midly progressive president which hilary clinton/obama overthrew, and are facing a severe drought brought on by climate change. If i was trying to create as many immigrants as i possibly could, i would carry out similar policy to trump.
One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings
On July 18 2019 08:16 Loco wrote:
you refuse to learn anything about it and you refuse to elaborate on why stateless societies are doomed to collapse from within
Except that I'm an anarchist myself LOL, I said a communism or a form of left wing abolition of private property would collapse in a large scale especially one withouth compelled work which I believe is what you want, obviously nobody is going to willingly do the hard but needed jobs, nobody dreams about scrubbing toilets we all want to be musicians but for society to function we need 300 cleaners for every musician and that is only on the base of the labor pyramid, there are several other problems in the middle and top that would bring productivity to a halt and get starvation and poverty.
meanwhile it is okay for you to believe in a fictional capitalist society while capitalism has killed more people than all of the attempts at socialism did and the ecological crisis currently reveals that there is exactly a 0% chance that your free market fantasy will be able to come into existence. You're one to talk about narrowsightedness and hypocrisy.
When we talk about death under communism is direct deaths political executions and starvations, not some abstract connect the dot deaths, I don't think I would be able to quantify the odds of a true free market based society to happen in my lifetime, but I do know that much higher than left-wing anarchist, and I mean a big modern socitey not rural shithole.
You don't support detention camps, you just support the forces that keep them running, call people who oppose them terrorists, and find clips of outliers to mock people who protest ICE because that's what people who don't support the camps do, obviously.
I support border control in a welfare state since migration quickly becomes a fiscal burden too heavy to carry, if there is no welfare then there is no need for this control, so I don't support these camps because they serve no purpose but to enrich politicians and corporations while also hurting people when people should be deported as fast as possible.
I also think calling them concentration camps is intelectually dishonest and I find people who do this for popularity like AOC disgusting, the same race baiting flavor the right-wing tactics have, also I dont support hysterical SJWs like the ones on the video nor left wing terrorists.
"obviously nobody is going to willingly do the hard but needed jobs"
How is this obvious when you don't present any reasoning or data to back it up with even though there are plenty of historical examples we can look at? Do you deny that there currently are and there have been stateless societies? If you don't deny this then there are only two options: either those societies collapsed (or are collapsing) because no one wanted to do unpleasant work, or the society became authoritarian and forced people to do it, therefore it no longer was a stateless society (because all societies that involve hierarchies of dominance end up concentrating power in the form of a state.) Well, which is it, and what evidence do you have to support your conclusion?
The thing about "shithole countries" (a favorite term of right-wing extremists btw) is that you obscure the fact that they are in the state they are in because they have been under constant attack and have been over-exploited: they are not what they are because of some inherent deficient characteristics of those who live there (which far-right extremists claim is the case). You also use this word to weasel your way out of having to look at the most successful anarchist revolution in recent history by using this unbelievably lazy terminology. Do you deny that this is not a problem right now in Rojava? When is it going to be a problem? When does a society qualify as a "real" stateless society according to your non-arbitrary standards? How do you decide that 6 million people living somewhere is not a good enough number but your chosen number isn't? You had no problem considering Somalia a relatively successful anarchistic society 10 years ago when they only had slightly above 10 million people, why is that?
Why is it that you pose it as a "human nature" problem by saying literally nobody is going to do it, and then you move the goalpost to whether it's happening in a urban or rural setting?
I also think calling them concentration camps is intelectually dishonest and I find people who do this for popularity like AOC disgusting,
So what, you read minds now? Do you know what an appeal to motive fallacy is? Do you deny that separating families, removing children from their parents, and providing inadequate food and shelter were precisely the conditions for camp detainees during the Nazi regime including in the early years of WW2?
Your silence on the Trump rally is incredibly telling also. You thought it was very important to respect "innocent" MAGA Trumpers and call out antifascist/antiracist action against them. Here you are faced with the same reality you were faced with when Milo was given a standing ovation by Nazis and you are refusing to own up to it. Only when the status quo moves with you do you move on any subject at all. But I'm certain that like most liberals, 10+ years from now on you will act as if you have been at the forefront of opposing all of those oppressive things that you are currently defending or distracting from and downplaying the severity of.
When we talk about death under communism is direct deaths political executions and starvations, not some abstract connect the dot deaths,
So am I. Capitalism has caused more death and misery, no question. But both are dreadful and obsolete authoritarian systems.
I don't think I would be able to quantify the odds of a true free market based society to happen in my lifetime, but I do know that much higher than left-wing anarchist, and I mean a big modern socitey not rural shithole.
No problem, I have done the calculations for you, and the odds are exactly 0%. You are asking for a revolution which cannot exist. A revolution involves a collective goal and people putting their bodies on the line for a better future, not changing consumer preferences while the damages of said consumption are externalized and must be dealt with later. First, these ideas are no longer credible in most of the public's eye. Free market fundamentalism and neoliberalism have become inseparable and the worldwide opposition to neoliberalism and trickle-down economics is immense and shows no sign of stopping. Secondly, there is no more "later". This is the first generation under which there is an inextinguishable and pressing need to revolutionize democracy worldwide because the existential risks have become increasingly felt by people who see no possible future without it. Revolutions are always led by credible and charismatic people. Free market fundamentalism is only advocated by people who have no credibility so no one has to be worried about it.
I support border control in a welfare state since migration quickly becomes a fiscal burden too heavy to carry, if there is no welfare then there is no need for this control, so I don't support these camps because they serve no purpose but to enrich politicians and corporations while also hurting people when people should be deported as fast as possible.
Yeah except it costs more money to keep them in those cages than to give them basic necessities and allow them the opportunity to contribute, and sending people back doesn't work anymore than it works to try to stop a leak by putting buckets on the ground. You think the bureaucracy behind those raids and deportations is a good and necessary thing, except "you're an anarchist" LOL.
But nevermind that, how about you tell me why those who oppose the camps are part of a terrorist organization but those who create those circumstances, who create that terror are not part of a terrorist organization? Why do you call Spronsen a antifa terrorist but you don't call ICE officers state-funded terrorists?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
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