Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 149

On July 20 2019 11:19 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2019 10:54 Spitfiree wrote:   On July 20 2019 04:51 Baalim wrote: Nobody: Absolutely nobody: Loco: You believe in the free market so your beliefs overlap 95% with this facist. More like: Baal: I'm fine with everything being legal and people being free to do what they wish as long as they dont hurt anyone Loco: you're a facist :D Well, libertarianism is authoritarianism. There can't really be any debate about that imo, looking at the structure of corporations it's hard to deny they are top down, orders come from above, and decisions are made in secret for the most part. The video loco linked with Chomsky explaining this basic fact, imo Chomsky is very mild in his critique. The guy says 'corporations can't murder you', Chomsky doesn't debate this. But in actual fact in a good chunk of the world, they are involved in some serious violent crime. It's just western societies where private power can't go around commiting those violent crimes. I'd argue libertarianism is a form of economic facism. Perhaps this book is enlightening, it's been on my read list for 5+ years: https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Fasci...y-Mussolinis-Capitalism/dp/1604190760

I mean corporations are profit driven and their nature is fundamentally oppressive so I can't argue much with that

On July 20 2019 09:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think you're projecting your apathy here baal. There are in fact people who genuinely care about stuff like detention centers (or animal rights for that matter) to the point where being confronted with the horrors of reality brings them to tears. And AOC's story and ascent to politics me reminds me much more of a genuine believer than of a callous career-politician favoring reelection or personal power over political achievements. Like, my dad was a politician. He also cried many times during the vietnam war from reading stories about the atrocities committed. My brother was also a politician. Him, I don't think has ever done that. (And I also heard him state that there were opinions he held himself that he would never state in public, presuming them to be political suicide. ) It's certainly a thing in politics. But honestly AOC seems way more like my dad than like my brother. Obviously this is just personal opinion (on AOC) - but you seem to reject that real idealism can be a chief driving factor in creating political engagement. Personal opinion is that overall, the younger you are, the more likely your idealism is to be real, tbh. And AOC is actually younger than most of us.

what apathy, I discuss with Joseph Stalinois here every day lol, perhaps you mean my cynicism.

Yes she is very young and I don't doubt she believes she can change the US for good and she feels strongly about these immigrants but she is also not a moron and knows that media is going to be there and that if she can let herself go a bit with her feelings and drop a few tears and hug her friends that would look great, it doesn't mean that I believe she doesn't care and that after that she went into an armored SUV and light a cuban with a $100 bill, that level of cynicism takes decades of erosion from living within the political system.

She called these places concentration camps, and doubled down on it and now we got a man who bough that hyperbole and commited an act of terrorism, she also said that they were forced to drink from the toilet, and they drank from the water fountain on top of the toilet which is an ecological set up that do not waste water and they should be everywhere and now you have people thinking they are dying from sleep deprivation, malnourishment and worse when I statistically proved that they are very safe. This isn't Vietnam, this isnt Auschwitz, people need to calm down.

Also doubting the sincerity of a politician is not a fucking conspiracy theory lol... theres another phrase that completely lost its meaning because of hysterical people along with concentration camps.

You are some next-level naive imbecile if you think that an anarchist who has been involved in direct action for decades was influenced to act radically by some milquetoast Democrat because she used two words (which many scholars agree are accurate). That's a false cause fallacy and again it shows just how easily you swallow far-right rhetoric (she's a commie and she's radicalizing people! ! ! ! 1 1). Will was planning for this before AOC said anything at all. He chose that specific day because it had been exactly a year since a hunger strike had been started in that very center and the encampment outside and the conditions hadn't improved in fact they got worse and the raids became more frequent and brutal and that is why he attacked the vehicles.

Now you are trying to make it seem as though you were just doubting her sincerity. That's not going to pass. You very clearly didn't just do that, you aggressively pushed the same far-right conspiracy as the alt-right guy whose Tweet you shared and mocked me for not believing in it. You're still doubling down by saying "she knew media would be there". What kind of media outlet doesn't release pictures from a protest that they are covering asap and instead release it 1 year later? That's not how the media works.

It's not even just cynicism. It's part of your political program and a result of your Social Darwinist orientation as a die-hard free market true believer. From my interactions with right-wingers over time I've come to realize that they all seem to have this deeply-rooted conviction that everyone out there is just trying to "get ahead" and score points in one way or another and they don't want to be "fooled" by them. And indeed this was verbally confirmed to me directly more than once by them. Life is just one big competition to you people; it's been hammered into your nervous system at an early age and there's nothing you can do to change it when you feel you have benefited from it. People who free themselves from this socio-cultural conditioning are extremely rare.

On July 20 2019 11:10 Stroggoz wrote: I also agree with this, i don't think it's just projection though, this is the main ideology of the past 40 years: the government are the bad guys. I think it is innacurate to portray all politicians as deceptive and power hungry. I was going to comment on this a week back or so when Baal was making similar comments. I've met a few politicians myself, and generally the one's i respect are the one's that don't rise to power easily. There are quite a few out there that are trying to get things done and make the world a better place rather than comment on internet forums. I think many politicians are simply normal people that find themselves stuck in a culture that relies on deception, and they internalize the values. The same could be said of corporate executives. Though, of course, as institutions im totally opposed to state and corporate power.

I've been thinking for the past weeks of how our visions are shaped by the society we live in, I live in a extremely corrupt society that you guys living in the 1st world can try to imagine but can't fully grasp our economy is very mercantilist and its well known that if you want to make a lot of money in an easy way politics is the way to go, I have a few friend in politics too and most of them are shitty people and are probably way worse now. So likely im biased against politicians because of this, and its likely you guys are biased against businesses because their corruption is a bigger deal in your societies than mine.

My sister lives in California and when she visits home she always comes with amazing "crazy gringos" stories like how a lot of families eat daily on disposable dishes and cuterly and other things about the insane ameican hyper-consumism that baffles me and the first thing I think is "No wonder why Loco is hates capitalism, this is crazy" but thats not how things are here, capitalism is measured here, people stopped using straws on their on volition in many places, fast food places are starting to give you corn-leaves as plates, I have a 5yo phone with a cracked screen where I can easily afford a new one but I dont need one etc.

You posted this exact same thing about your sister's stories before. It might explain your biases but that's not how you're going to understand me. My mom drinks bottled water every day even though we have some of the cleanest water in the entire world coming out of our tap, but I'm not saying the things I'm saying because of that or things like that. I don't base my opinions on the things that are proximal to me, at least not on their own. I learn about things that are distal and how they impact us at the proximal level. I look at how wholes affect parts and parts affect wholes. I try to have a global perspective and think in ways that minimizes proximal biases. That's how we should be using our brains in the 21st century. We can't afford to only know what's in our backyards now.

Of course not, we are mainly discussing american and world politics I'm not talking about Mexico, I'm just trying to understand how come we see things so differently without just being assholes and me calling you champaign communist and you accusing me of being radicalized by a youtube video.

About Antifa I don't fear them but I think political violence is despicable, you don'nt have to fear something to condemnt and I mentioned it because you seemed to think Richard Spencer and other fascists were terrified of them and I really think you are wrong I mean Spencer probalby got a bruise I dont think he gives a fuck I think he actually loves the existence of Antifa as it gives him a clear antagonist, an evil that makes recruiting easier, I think simple social ostricizing and ridicule works best but a brawl with bike-locks? that sounds super fun to a frustrated young adult.

I accuse AOC of being teatrical to advance in her career I don't mean she is lying about her beliefs or that you or other leftists also don't, I've never accused you of having bad intentions, not once in 149 pages, yet you often assume mine are. I don't know if its due to frustration of not getting anywhere in this discussion or you just don't understand, but its silly that you think I don't care about dead children, also no I dont see life as a competition at all, I plan to retire as early as possible and die without a penny in the bank and I think people who devote their life in the pursuit of money and die in riches are fools.

So would you please stop assuming I'm this person I'm clearly not?


Also I found the Eric Gardner's death appauling, there should have been a murder trial and I think theres a horrible cop culture in the US where they escalate situations instead of deescalating and how they not only dodge a trial but also manage to keep their jobs after doing some crazy stuff its beyond me.

On July 21 2019 01:24 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2019 11:10 Stroggoz wrote: I also agree with this, i don't think it's just projection though, this is the main ideology of the past 40 years: the government are the bad guys. I think it is innacurate to portray all politicians as deceptive and power hungry. I was going to comment on this a week back or so when Baal was making similar comments. I've met a few politicians myself, and generally the one's i respect are the one's that don't rise to power easily. There are quite a few out there that are trying to get things done and make the world a better place rather than comment on internet forums. I think many politicians are simply normal people that find themselves stuck in a culture that relies on deception, and they internalize the values. The same could be said of corporate executives. Though, of course, as institutions im totally opposed to state and corporate power. I've been thinking for the past weeks of how our visions are shaped by the society we live in, I live in a extremely corrupt society that you guys living in the 1st world can try to imagine but can't fully grasp our economy is very mercantilist and its well known that if you want to make a lot of money in an easy way politics is the way to go, I have a few friend in politics too and most of them are shitty people and are probably way worse now. So likely im biased against politicians because of this, and its likely you guys are biased against businesses because their corruption is a bigger deal in your societies than mine. My sister lives in California and when she visits home she always comes with amazing "crazy gringos" stories like how a lot of families eat daily on disposable dishes and cuterly and other things about the insane ameican hyper-consumism that baffles me and the first thing I think is "No wonder why Loco is hates capitalism, this is crazy" but thats not how things are here, capitalism is measured here, people stopped using straws on their on volition in many places, fast food places are starting to give you corn-leaves as plates, I have a 5yo phone with a cracked screen where I can easily afford a new one but I dont need one etc.

I don't know what would make me 'biased against big business', i simply detest the harm they do to the world, and their authoritarian nature, which imo severely restricts human freedom. My values conflict with their institutional values. And i'm aware of enough of what they do to consider it an institutional problem, and not just a few bad apples. Their problems are not restricted to my own society, and except for maybe a few nation states like bhutan, north korea, and cuba, they have a strong influence all over the world. The problems of capitalism extend far beyond consumerism. And take a highly corrupt and highly capitalist society like India. The indian media is capitalist owned, which means it is highly critical of corruption but it never criticizes its own health care system, which the state spends 2% of gdp on. It's one of the worst health care systems in the world, and in terms of easily preventable deaths it's in the millions. Im also totally opposed to dictatorship, but i don't live in turkmenistan so i don't see any need to criticize it. I criticize my own society and the other ones that have heavily influenced it, and are in many ways similar. That's America, Australia, Canada, and Great Britain.

On July 21 2019 02:36 Baalim wrote: So would you please stop assuming I'm this person I'm clearly not? Also I found the Eric Gardner's death appauling, there should have been a murder trial and I think theres a horrible cop culture in the US where they escalate situations instead of deescalating and how they not only dodge a trial but also manage to keep their jobs after doing some crazy stuff its beyond me.

As soon as you will be done pushing exclusively for one side of the culture war and ignoring or downplaying massive injustices by mocking people associated with social justice activism or doing false equivalence fallacies between me and people who want to kill people because of some unalterable trait they have, I will adjust in function of that.

There is no "horrible cop culture" just like there is no "horrible mafioso culture". Being a cop in a stratified society is about defending the interests of the most powerful members of society, and as such, it is a necessary consequence that the most vulnerable people are going to get crushed and repressed, often violently. But repression is not only a problem to be denounced when its violence leads to a quick death that is salient to us as observers. Cops are trained to look the other way or help their kind when horrible human rights abuses are being committed, it's not just some of them that are coming into that behavior from their after-work gatherings at the bar.

I've never accused you of having bad intentions, not once in 149 pages, yet you often assume mine are

What you do is a lot worse than that. You equate my intentions with those of genocidal maniacs (who also seek to improve society according to you) and you assume the position of someone who is completely above "the both sides that are bad". It's a lot less insulting to tell someone that you think they have bad intentions than it is to indirectly say, "I know you have good intentions, but so do these other people who want to oppress and kill people they don't like for arbitrary reasons, and I know for a fact that you are wrong in the way you oppose them, because I understand the world we live in better than you, and you should listen to me."

"I'm cynically above it all because I'm too knowledgeable about human nature" is what it comes down to with you. But the worst part is not that, it's the complacency with which you do not want to be challenged on it. You'll say that it's okay if we critique you but your lazy and bad faith responses often demonstrate the opposite. I don't really ever talk about your intentions, I talk about the consequences of your beliefs and behavior as I understand them. I do so not from a position of prejudice but one of active study. I have a deep willingness to understand things that you do not have, hence the rift between us. I can only comment on the things that I see from you, and what I see from you is most often agitating for an agenda that serves the status quo or the far-right.

No you don't you keep saying you base things in understanding and evidence, but for example I just bitchslapped you with the mortality rate of the detention centers and you will keep continuing pedaling this bullshit narrative where is your adjustment to the evidence there?

Also no, its worse to say "you are evil" than "your intentions are good, but I think you are mistaken".

There is bad cop culture, US cops are objectivly worse than cops in my other places, I'm a little burnt out of this convo, I think I'll just post crazy leftist meme shit for a while and re-engage later.

On July 21 2019 02:45 Stroggoz wrote: I don't know what would make me 'biased against big business', i simply detest the harm they do to the world, and their authoritarian nature, which imo severely restricts human freedom. My values conflict with their institutional values. And i'm aware of enough of what they do to consider it an institutional problem, and not just a few bad apples. Their problems are not restricted to my own society, and except for maybe a few nation states like bhutan, north korea, and cuba, they have a strong influence all over the world. The problems of capitalism extend far beyond consumerism. And take a highly corrupt and highly capitalist society like India. The indian media is capitalist owned, which means it is highly critical of corruption but it never criticizes its own health care system, which the state spends 2% of gdp on. It's one of the worst health care systems in the world, and in terms of easily preventable deaths it's in the millions. Im also totally opposed to dictatorship, but i don't live in turkmenistan so i don't see any need to criticize it. I criticize my own society and the other ones that have heavily influenced it, and are in many ways similar. That's America, Australia, Canada, and Great Britain.

You are missing my point, had you been experienced the horrors of the soviets you probably would have different political views I just made a vague mini argument about our potential biases.

You "bitchslapped me" by giving me an ICE officer's PR talking point and choosing the figure of 500,000 when they said between 300,000 and 500,000 so as to make sure you could statistically minimize the impact of those deaths as much as you could. Then you used the justification for why we shouldn't be outraged by saying that it's easier for an ICE officer to die in a car accident on their way to the camps. I didn't respond because it should be obvious to anyone that this rhetoric is insane. You are comparing the risks that a person willingly takes to earn money and defend their prestigious position in society with the dangers that are imposed on the most vulnerable people in society by tyrants who keep them in cages. They are not given basic necessities and are separated from their families because it's punitively racist and financially profitable. They are treated like criminals instead civil detainees, and you find it suitable to defend the real criminals here and downplay the abuses they're imposing albeit in a half-assed and inconsistent manner which is your signature move.

Good thing there are the nonprofit groups that take good care of the migrant children though! Oh wait.

"Six top-level executives at a nonprofit group that houses thousands of migrant children for the U.S. government made at least $1 million in 2017, according to tax filings obtained by The Washington Post.

Juan Sanchez, founder of the Texas-based Southwest Key Programs, earned $3.6 million in total compensation that year. Five other employees earned seven-figure salaries, with the group’s chief financial officer earning more than $2.4 million."

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/45...t-children-made-at-least-1-million-in

In before "I'm against that, but I'm also against the people who are against it but that want to do something about it."

loco is there any way for a government to detain someone that isn't fascism?

On July 21 2019 06:59 Loco wrote: You "bitchslapped me" by giving me an ICE officer's PR talking point and choosing the figure of 500,000 when they said between 300,000 and 500,000 so as to make sure you could statistically minimize the impact of those deaths as much as you could. Then you used the justification for why we shouldn't be outraged by saying that it's easier for an ICE officer to die in a car accident on their way to the camps. I didn't respond because it should be obvious to anyone that this rhetoric is insane. You are comparing the risks that a person willingly takes[

Oh, so the risk isn't 0.00004%, but between 0.00004% and 0.00006% you got me.

No need to correct your rethoric about people dying from sleep deprivation, no acces to healthcare and unsanitary conditions, carry on with your evidence based beliefs into the absolutely certain eco anarchist future as it was prophesied, full steam ahead comrade!

Ok, so tell me, what is the magic number of detainees deaths that is acceptable?

Where did you provide evidence that my claims about the conditions there aren't what I said they were? I only remember you mentioning death rates. It's possible to live in abject circumstances without dying en masse, isn't it?

On July 21 2019 08:03 Loco wrote: Ok, so tell me, what is the magic number of detainees deaths that is acceptable? Where did you provide evidence that my claims about the conditions there aren't what I said they were? I only remember you mentioning death rates. It's possible to live in abject circumstances without dying en masse, isn't it?

hmm good sarcastic question

how about, lower than the rate of people getting raped and sex trafficked and murdered on the way to illegally entering the US, dying of thirst in the desert illegally crossing the border, and suffocating to death in trucks and shipping containers, etc.

On July 21 2019 08:03 Loco wrote: Ok, so tell me, what is the magic number of detainees deaths that is acceptable? Where did you provide evidence that my claims about the conditions there aren't what I said they were? I only remember you mentioning death rates. It's possible to live in abject circumstances without dying en masse, isn't it?

n > 0.000006%

yes there are pictures where these places are overcrowded and a guy holding a sign saying he has been there for 3 weeks, that is awful and it has to stop, calling politicians, voting, posting or protesting is fine, comparing it to nazi camps is not, saying these people are dying because of X and Y reason is not, torching the place and killing officers is not.

I'm burnt out so heres the memes:

the $33 wage is probably roughly what you'd have if neoliberal economic policy wasn't adopted, and wage increases coincided with productivity increase.