Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 181

Baal is of course correct, what the world needs are more US-backed military coups all over the place. This is going to usher in a new era of prosperity for the Bolivians (because we all know just how bad life has been for most people since Evo took power!). Love live the Bolivarian oligarchy; Long live fascism!

On November 11 2019 02:04 Baalim wrote: countries don't need leaders who change the constitution to stay permanently in power, regardless of your political leanings, you dont need to be a big brained arbiter to know this, you just need a bit of common sense.

whatever you think of evo morales, the facts are evo morales offered to completely annul the election results and run it again, the military was unhappy with this proposal and recommended he step down. The military represent their own elite interests, obviously, they arn't representative of the population. It would also be absurd to think so given the history of right wing military junta's in latin american. This is a pretty clear coup and no one who values democracy would ever support it in the least.

I dont get it, how is the army and the military 2 different things, or any different from what you just said Stroggoz

:o, kinda like asking if california and america are two different things. is donald trump the president of california?

On November 11 2019 13:03 Loco wrote: Baal is of course correct, what the world needs are more US-backed military coups all over the place. This is going to usher in a new era of prosperity for the Bolivians (because we all know just how bad life has been for most people since Evo took power!). Love live the Bolivarian oligarchy; Long live fascism!

Here comes the dictator lover, what a surprise!

So a brief history of Evo Morales in power:

2005 Evo Morales is elected president of Bolivia.

2008 He pushes a referendum to re-elect himself that passes with 67% of the votes, just one re-election is approved.

2010 He is re-eleced and serves his second term, he claims his first term didn't count since it was served under the previous constitution.

2015 Evo serves his 3rd term

2016 He pushes a referendum again to re-elect himself for 4th time, he loses the vote, no re-election is approved

2017 He takes it into the tribunal which he has stacked with party members, they said that its his human right to run again.

2019 He wins controvertial election, the people had enough, they riot, the police joins the protests, then the military and he resigns.



Next time you feel like pretending not to be a tankie don't jump to defend left wing dictators

On November 11 2019 15:13 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On November 11 2019 02:04 Baalim wrote: countries don't need leaders who change the constitution to stay permanently in power, regardless of your political leanings, you dont need to be a big brained arbiter to know this, you just need a bit of common sense. whatever you think of evo morales, the facts are evo morales offered to completely annul the election results and run it again, the military was unhappy with this proposal and recommended he step down. The military represent their own elite interests, obviously, they arn't representative of the population. It would also be absurd to think so given the history of right wing military junta's in latin american. This is a pretty clear coup and no one who values democracy would ever support it in the least.

Latinamerican countries are new fragile democracies, we've suffered through a lot of dictators, Mexico had a revoultion in 1910 just to write that down in our constitution NO RE-ELECTION.

Evo Morales didn't have any right for another election it was against their constitution, any president of a developing nation that attempts to re-elect themselves against the constitution should be executed on the spot for treason by the army

Or would you like Zhivkov to have a shot at the Bulgarian presidency? -_-

Weird, army and military are used as synonyms in Bulgarian, guess the same relation would be 'troops' instead of 'army' (Except in english troops->army-> military) good to have that cleared out.

We already had our revolution in 1989 together with a new constitution. Guess who's been ruling the country for the past 30 years? Spies and military generals working under Zhivkov. There're good parts though, those people at least have the courtesy to run everything behind the scenes and appoint public puppets. Makes it easier for the public to swallow the truth, even though everyone is aware

I also don't think anyone is supporting Morales here, they're simply pointing out its another mess the CIA is making, which is literally none of their business.

i'm not a supporter of his concentration of state power, fine, his illegal relections are worthy of impeachment. The right way to solve that problem would be to simply impeach him and hold re-elections, not threaten him into leaving the country so you can put your own person in power. (some ultra right neoliberal), fact of the matter is evo morales was very popular because he was the first president that actually did anything to support the interests of those in poverty, which made up most of the population. He was suggested that he should rerun the election under what looks to me like fair conditions, and the military didn't want an election, imo because they know they would lose it.

asking for extra judicial murder of him or anyone in the world is immoral in principle, im not a barbarian. I don't really see him as a radical leftist, more of a moderate that redirected some resources to the poor. Nothing the pink tide movement did was really that radically leftist, but it was a very significant political movement as it was the first time latin america freed itself from imperial control in about 500 years, and it could have developed further and latin america could have become free, independent culturally and economically and in time become developed countries. This movement has well and truly regressed or been defeated (bolsonaro, ect) by now.

On November 12 2019 03:44 Baalim wrote: 2017 He takes it into the tribunal which he has stacked with party members, they said that its his human right to run again.

That is false. The court that abolished term limits, the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, is "made up of nine members and nine alternates, representing the nine departments of Bolivia, elected in popular, nonpartisan elections to terms of six years. Reelection is forbidden."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bolivian_constitutional_referendum#Aftermath
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Tribunal_of_Justice_(Bolivia)

2019 He wins controvertial election, the people had enough, they riot, the police joins the protests, then the military and he resigns.

That's not what happened. This wasn't "the will of the people", quite obviously, and the fact that Evo accepted to redo the election right before the coup forced him out is enough on its own to debunk it, and here's something else to debunk the "controversial election" narrative:

On November 12 2019 13:40 Spitfiree wrote: We already had our revolution in 1989 together with a new constitution. Guess who's been ruling the country for the past 30 years? Spies and military generals working under Zhivkov. I also don't think anyone is supporting Morales here, they're simply pointing out its another mess the CIA is making, which is literally none of their business.

So thats why you think the army controls latinamerican countries, but its not true, Mexico has the 2nd largest army in latinamerica (behind Brazil) and they are absolutely inconsecuential in terms of politics, , however to break the constitution and become a dictator you must have the support of the army, that is the difference between Evo and Maduro

Loco is supporting Morales obviously, he supports Maduro too lol, so far I haven't seen any evidence of CIA meddling you are jumping to conclusions, not that it would be surprising at all as everyone knows they've done this a lot of times before.

On November 12 2019 14:51 Stroggoz wrote: i'm not a supporter of his concentration of state power, fine, his illegal relections are worthy of impeachment. The right way to solve that problem would be to simply impeach him and hold re-elections, not threaten him into leaving the country so you can put your own person in power. (some ultra right neoliberal), fact of the matter is evo morales was very popular because he was the first president that actually did anything to support the interests of those in poverty, which made up most of the population. He was suggested that he should rerun the election under what looks to me like fair conditions, and the military didn't want an election, imo because they know they would lose it. asking for extra judicial murder of him or anyone in the world is immoral in principle, im not a barbarian. I don't really see him as a radical leftist, more of a moderate that redirected some resources to the poor. Nothing the pink tide movement did was really that radically leftist, but it was a very significant political movement as it was the first time latin america freed itself from imperial control in about 500 years, and it could have developed further and latin america could have become free, independent culturally and economically and in time become developed countries. This movement has well and truly regressed or been defeated (bolsonaro, ect) by now.

You can't impeach a dictator because they are fucking dictators lol, they control the country institutions, the judicial power is under their control, don't you see that he changed the constutition twice and he got the supreme court to declare for a 4rth term as a sign that he controls this branch?

There will be new elections in Bolivia but Evo Morales cannot be on the ballot.

You people in 1st world countries don't seem to realize how frail democracies are in developing nations, allowing a power hungry asshole to re-elect themselves is setting that democracy back 100 years, as I said my country had a revolution and civil war to defeat a dictator and the motto of the revolution was no re-election, anybody in Mexico who attempts to re-elect themselves is commiting the worse act of treason and its the duty of the military to execute them and of the people to raise in arms and wage war against the tyrant.

On November 12 2019 15:59 Loco wrote: That is false. The court that abolished term limits, the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, is "made up of nine members and nine alternates, representing the nine departments of Bolivia, elected in popular, nonpartisan elections to terms of six years. Reelection is forbidden." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bolivian_constitutional_referendum#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Tribunal_of_Justice_(Bolivia)

What are you even refuting? are you trying to say that because the wikipedia article says the Supreme Court is made up by elected memebers somehow that means they are not in Evo's pocket?

Proving once again that you have no idea how politics work outside of your pink canadian bubble.

We can expect hate crimes against indigenous people to soar massively over the coming years.

Hate crimes? you keep thinking through your narrow western perspective, you don't see many hatecrimes in latam for the same reason you don't see them in japan, genetic homogeinity, classism is a big deal but that doesn't critalize in what you call hate crimes.

Unlike tankies I am not satisfied with authoritarian leaders and I am under no illusion that they are planning to usher in a communist utopia and I don't spend my time licking the boots of the police because it's the "communist police". If you had interacted with a tankie before you would know that this is what they do. But this law-and-order bootlicking "for the cause" (of "communism" or the "free market", no matter) is something you have in common with them, not me. That's why you are under the illusion that military coups in latin america are good and you support them with deceptive word games and it's also why you sympathize more with fascists than anti-fascists elsewhere in the world.

Except that you have praised and supported Chavez and Maduro, event went as far as saying they had "hones faces" (lol) and right now you are defending Evo Morales calling him a democratic leader not a dictator.

You also support gulags, sorry... re-education camps for political dissidents, oh but that won't be police, that will be "the people" yup, totally not an autoritarian maniac then, carry on.

I support a coup to remove dictators, not a leader serving their constitutional term.

Next time you feel like exposing yourself as a hypocrite who opposes democracy and is blinded by manufactured anti-left fanaticism, just.

Its the opposite, you support dictators only because they align politically with you, you don't care about democracy.

I oppose any dictator, left center or right.

I have no problem at all with a left wing president serving his constitutional term like Mujica did, that is democracy, not what Evo did.

I've actually long maintained that Uruguay is the latin american country that should be the leftist flagship of the region. Haven't heard much if anything negative, and a bunch of sensible stuff, coming from there.

Obviously it's hard to claim the CIA's involvement with certainty if they were leaving easy facts to find for someone they wouldn't be efficient now, would they? Considering they've been practically involved in every military coup in Latin America, it wouldn't exactly be a 'bad' assumption though.

Also no, its not 'that' why I think the military control Latin America, its the constant coups happening and the 'military' reigning until a government is established or you know the president is an ex-high military official like Bolsanero. And by that I don't mean I expect to see military personnel on the street with M4s patrolling all around in a dystopian way, I'd just expect high ranking generals to have a say in everything happening in the countries

On November 13 2019 08:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: I've actually long maintained that Uruguay is the latin american country that should be the leftist flagship of the region. Haven't heard much if anything negative, and a bunch of sensible stuff, coming from there.

Yet instead of following Mujica they choose to support these dictators, I don't get it, its like if conservatives supported Pinochet and Franco instead of Reagan or whoever.

On November 13 2019 08:48 Spitfiree wrote: Obviously it's hard to claim the CIA's involvement with certainty if they were leaving easy facts to find for someone they wouldn't be efficient now, would they? Considering they've been practically involved in every military coup in Latin America, it wouldn't exactly be a 'bad' assumption though. Also no, its not 'that' why I think the military control Latin America, its the constant coups happening and the 'military' reigning until a government is established or you know the president is an ex-high military official like Bolsanero. And by that I don't mean I expect to see military personnel on the street with M4s patrolling all around in a dystopian way, I'd just expect high ranking generals to have a say in everything happening in the countries

In this particular case there weren't assasination attemps or armed milicias or something that screams CIA involvement though.

I think the military has more political the more unstable a country is, so in the midst of dictatorships and coups they do have political power but for example in México the military have no political power whatsoever, this is also the case in most of latinamérica so I guess you are right but only to a specific minority of unstable countries like Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, Panamá maybe Colombia and now Bolivia

On November 13 2019 09:30 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On November 13 2019 08:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: I've actually long maintained that Uruguay is the latin american country that should be the leftist flagship of the region. Haven't heard much if anything negative, and a bunch of sensible stuff, coming from there. Yet instead of following Mujica they choose to support these dictators, I don't get it, its like if conservatives supported Pinochet and Franco instead of Reagan or whoever.

Conservatives did support Pinochet though.

Depends on what you mean by conservative since he kind of had free-market policy, conservatives are usually those that praise nationalism and protectionism, but his economic policy certainly wasn't that

Franco, on the other hand, is as conservative as one could get, he only opened Spain to international markets cause he had no other choice. If it was up to him Spain would've been a closed-off, deeply religious nation with him portrayed as a god. The ' economic prosperity ' is due to the fact that the nation was in ruins after the civil war. There's a reason Spain has been lagging behind literally every West European nation even now

On November 13 2019 08:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: I've actually long maintained that Uruguay is the latin american country that should be the leftist flagship of the region. Haven't heard much if anything negative, and a bunch of sensible stuff, coming from there.

Uruguay is awesome !!
- Almost half of Uruguay’s population are irreligious. Since 1916, the church and state were officially separated. The government does not allow any religious symbols in public places and have renamed national holidays to reflect secularism. For example, Christmas is known as “Day of the Family” and Easter is referred to as “Tourism Week”.
- Public education is free from kindergarten to university. There is only one public university in Uruguay. In order to accommodate everybody, some classes are held in churches, since churches are infrequently used for religious services.
- Uruguay has a low incidence of violent or petty crime.
- Uruguay was the first country in the world to fully legalize marijuana
++++++

https://whereswindji.com/why-uruguay-is-awesome/

Super off topic but so worth sharing, this is our PM and new the US ambassador earlier this week. I bet she didn't expect that shit when they gave her the position of ambassador in Eastern Europe