What do you mean partially self-governed? Aren't they pretty much an autonomous zone? They kicked out political parties too. Why wouldn't they need self-defense forces because the cartels left? If they came back they'd be able to seize and control the town again
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
I meant most rural zones in México are patially self-governed, some have a couple of local cops but a lot of justice is done through lynching, towns like Cherán had to forbid any police because as I said the police is colluded with the cartels.
I think they still get the utilities mainly, electricity from the state and pay for it and afaik they are capitalists.
My general approach in life is to listen to people with specific issues because I know my own subjective experiences involve built-in biases and extreme knowledge-gaps. Everyone has knowledge-gaps. It is not possible to pay attention to everything equally, and to be knowledgeable about everything. I didn't personally experience certain things so the only way I can know about them is by listening to people who have experienced them and studying the historical/structural reasons for them to have come to exist.
It follows from this that I believe the people who are best positioned to know what they want and what they recognize as solutions are those who experience the problems. It's not a communist vanguard party or a liberal elite that's going to be able to help them gain more freedom and autonomy. Change happens from the bottom up, by people who represent themselves. It is logical and is historically verifiable. Personal feelings/the fragility of one's ego and its prejudices seem to be the only thing that get in people's way of recognizing this. It's immature to stay stuck in the mindset that you know what's best for people -- especially highly educated people -- who have personal experience with racist violence and have seriously discussed and studied these topics for decades.
You don't assume to know more about medicine than doctors, but for some reason, everyone's a social scientist these days. It's very similar to nutrition; they are fields where people don't believe you have to be trained in order to be able to make accurate assessments based in reality. Everyone can be an expert based on their intuitions. It's a false perception. It's very psychologically comforting but it's false. These things are not intuitive and there is no one who is special in that way.
The myth of racial color blindness is persistent today because it is intuitive, not because it is true. The "Morgan Freeman approach" is literally shared by Facebook moms and aunts with zero knowledge of racial issues. That should be somewhat telling to a person interested in rationality. The obvious first point to raise is, if race doesn't matter, why are people so invested in having a token black successful guy say it? Because it simply wouldn't have the same impact otherwise. If it was Trump or some other white republican saying it, it wouldn't go viral on Facebook to the delight of all of the moms and aunts.
Systemic issues are by definition issues that do not belong to individuals. If you're conceiving of racism as something that individuals do to other individuals, you are fundamentally wrong. (Actually, fun fact, the merriam webster dictionary is in the process of updating the word 'racism' for this reason, and to highlight that it is a systemic thing.) Individuals make up a society, but society functions as a superstructure that is beyond the individuals. It's a case of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. You do not solve systemic issues by not talking about them. Sweeping things under the rug only serves to maintain things as they are. The first step to solving a problem is to first bring it to light.
I can give you one example outside of the ones you are aware of relating to prisons:
The National Bureau of Economic Research found that you are much more likely to get a call-back from a possible employer if you have a white sounding name instead of a Black sounding name. https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html. It also found that "The 50 percent gap in callback rates is statistically very significant and it indicates that a white name yields as many more callbacks as an additional eight years of experience."
If you don't talk about it, then employers will never know, and will never be pressured into implementing a system that corrects this bias. (In this case, the problem is easy to solve by making the names not visible to employers). I can also guarantee you that these employers would say, "I am not a racist", almost every single one of them if you were to ask them. I'm sure they are all fine people with familities they care about and maybe even a black friend. But they have biases. And this is why we have social science. We understand very well in the 21st century that people are not who they say they are. It's just not that easy.
We could go down a long list of these kinds of discriminations that will not change unless we talk about them but there is no point. Color blindness would be fine in a post-racial society, it would be an organic result of it. The question is whether we are not a post-racial society or not. I say we are not and the evidence is damning. Color blindness in a world that isn't there is, by all evidence, guaranteeing that you will never get there either. There is a reason why the vast, vast majority of Black people do not support the color blindness ideology, and if you were a truth-seeker, you would have a very serious interest in finding out why. You would not just assume that they are all brainwashed or stupid. And you wouldn't making these lazy categorizations and putting people who disagree with you in a convenient box labelled "SJW" and dismissing their lived experiences and years of historical and scientific study. That's my 2 cents and I'm leaving it there because any further discussion on this is going to be extremely counter-productive.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 18 2020 03:53 Baalim wrote:
I meant most rural zones in México are patially self-governed, some have a couple of local cops but a lot of justice is done through lynching, towns like Cherán had to forbid any police because as I said the police is colluded with the cartels.
I think they still get the utilities mainly, electricity from the state and pay for it and afaik they are capitalists.
So they are a town that abolished politics and the police... what has been the result of this since its inception? Has there been an increase in violence or a decrease? By how much?
What do you mean they are capitalists? Are you saying that if the town isn't perfectly self-sustaining and they have to engage in external trade this makes them capitalists?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
So they are a town that abolished politics and the police... what has been the result of this since its inception? Has there been an increase in violence or a decrease? By how much?
What do you mean they are capitalists? Are you saying that if the town isn't perfectly self-sustaining and they have to engage in external trade this makes them capitalists?
Well the violence increased greatly in the process of kicking the cartels but after it was done I assume it obviously wen't down greatly, are you trying to tell me that cops suck? I just told you a couple of days ago that the police in the US is awful and it should be descalated and decentralized, the cop syndicate should be eliminated so that cops are held accountable to the community, obviously police requires certain degree of centralization to operate in a big city and that is one of the problems with scaling down certain systems.
With capitalists I mean they have private property, trade with currency, free market, they are the ANCAPS you hate so much.
Wow, they are ancaps? That sounds like something you should have brought up before then. Well, I read from a couple sources that there is virtually no violence there now. That sounds like a model to replicate, so I can say with confidence that you can convert me to an-capism if you can prove to me that this is true.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 18 2020 03:55 Loco wrote:
My general approach in life is to listen to people with specific issues because I know my own subjective experiences involve built-in biases and extreme knowledge-gaps. Everyone has knowledge-gaps. It is not possible to pay attention to everything equally, and to be knowledgeable about everything. I didn't personally experience certain things so the only way I can know about them is by listening to people who have experienced them and studying the historical/structural reasons for them to have come to exist.
It follows from this that I believe the people who are best positioned to know what they want and what they recognize as solutions are those who experience the problems. It's not a communist vanguard party or a liberal elite that's going to be able to help them gain more freedom and autonomy. Change happens from the bottom up, by people who represent themselves. It is logical and is historically verifiable. Personal feelings/the fragility of one's ego and its prejudices seem to be the only thing that get in people's way of recognizing this. It's immature to stay stuck in the mindset that you know what's best for people -- especially highly educated people -- who have personal experience with racist violence and have seriously discussed and studied these topics for decades.
No you don't, you listen to who you think is marginalized and only if they confirm your beliefs to feel virtuous.
You've tried to school me regarding Mexican and latinamerican politics, and dismissed me as a "lightskin" you don't listen to anything I have to say because I don't say the things you want to hear, the same when I contrast how men are underprivileged in many areas and you push back against that because it doesn't fit the sjw dogma.
You don't assume to know more about medicine than doctors, but for some reason, everyone's a social scientist these days. It's very similar to nutrition; they are fields where people don't believe you have to be trained in order to be able to make accurate assessments based in reality. Everyone can be an expert based on their intuitions. It's a false perception. It's very psychologically comforting but it's false. These things are not intuitive and there is no one who is special in that way.
apealing to authority fallacy, and you believe evolutionary psychology to be a bogus science because it goes against SJW dogma, but if I say sociology has been politicized then I'm the one who refuses to listen to experts.
The myth of racial color blindness is persistent today because it is intuitive, not because it is true. The "Morgan Freeman approach" is literally shared by Facebook moms and aunts with zero knowledge of racial issues. That should be somewhat telling to a person interested in rationality. The obvious first point to raise is, if race doesn't matter, why are people so invested in having a token black successful guy say it? Because it simply wouldn't have the same impact otherwise. If it was Trump or some other white republican saying it, it wouldn't go viral on Facebook to the delight of all of the moms and aunts.
Systemic issues are by definition issues that do not belong to individuals. If you're conceiving of racism as something that individuals do to other individuals, you are fundamentally wrong. (Actually, fun fact, the merriam webster dictionary is in the process of updating the word 'racism' for this reason, and to highlight that it is a systemic thing.) Individuals make up a society, but society functions as a superstructure that is beyond the individuals. It's a case of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. You do not solve systemic issues by not talking about them. Sweeping things under the rug only serves to maintain things as they are. The first step to solving a problem is to first bring it to light.
Facebook moms & aunts believe the earth is round, thats a terrible argument, people will listen more to Morgan Freeman because we are usually biased in our favor one of the reasons why you just shouldn't "listen" uncritically as you said in your first line
The National Bureau of Economic Research found that you are much more likely to get a call-back from a possible employer if you have a white sounding name instead of a Black sounding name. https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html. It also found that "The 50 percent gap in callback rates is statistically very significant and it indicates that a white name yields as many more callbacks as an additional eight years of experience."
If you don't talk about it, then employers will never know, and will never be pressured into implementing a system that corrects this bias. I can also guarantee you that these employers would say, "I am not a racist", almost every single one of them if you were to ask them. I'm sure they are all fine people with familities they care about and maybe even a black friend. But they have biases. And this is why we have social science. We understand very well in the 21st century that people are not who they say they are. It's just not that easy.
We could go down a long list of these kinds of discriminations that will not change unless we talk about them but there is no point. Color blindness would be fine in a post-racial society, it would be an organic result of it. The question is whether we are not a post-racial society or not. I say we are not and the evidence is damning. Color blindness in a world that isn't there is, by all evidence, guaranteeing that you will never get there either. There is a reason why the vast, vast majority of Black people do not support the color blindness ideology, and if you were a truth-seeker, you would have a very serious interest in finding out why. You would not just assume that they are all brainwashed or stupid. And you wouldn't making these lazy categorizations and putting people who disagree with you in a convenient box labelled "SJW" and dismissing their lived experiences and years of historical and scientific study. That's my 2 cents and I'm leaving it there because any further discussion on this is going to be extremely counter-productive.
I've heard that stat before and as I've said multiple times racism obviously still exist and it should be worked on (like as I said, scrutinizing judges with blatant biases etc), what I mean is that we should stop hyper-focusing on these categories that divide us, the post-racial societyis archieved by trascending these disctintions by treating people like individuals and not by hyper-focusing on categorization which is something the two extremes of the political espectrum seem to obsess with.
On June 18 2020 04:37 Loco wrote:
Wow, they are ancaps? That sounds like something you should have brought up before then. Well, I read from a couple sources that there is virtually no violence there now. That sounds like a model to replicate, so I can say with confidence that you can convert me to an-capism if you can prove to me that this is true.
On June 18 2020 04:37 Loco wrote:
Wow, they are ancaps? That sounds like something you should have brought up before then. Well, I read from a couple sources that there is virtually no violence there now. That sounds like a model to replicate, so I can say with confidence that you can convert me to an-capism if you can prove to me that this is true.
If I can prove that they have a free market?
Just exactly what you said, that they are ancap. Whatever that implies. I'd like you to walk me through how they are organized as an ancap society. Do it as if I had never heard of ancap before. Like an "explain like I'm 5" thing. Obviously "there is private property and they do trade" isn't going to cut it, because you're describing nearly the whole world. What makes them ancap?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On June 16 2020 16:20 Loco wrote:
"Though this may not be a task for your first conversation about race in the U.S., dismantling the model minority myth might help families understand how their own preconceived biases came to be.
“Asian Americans are fed this narrative,” Yamazaki said. “‘Look at Asian people, look at how well you’ve done.’ That narrative has been perpetuated by white people and internalized by Asian people.”
Though some Asians have long benefited from this idea, it’s a narrative designed to pit minority groups against one another, according to Iyer.
The stereotype was created to make geopolitical gains from the growing Asian immigrant population in the U.S. and wielded to stop black social movements, Ellen Wu, a historian and the author of “The Color of Success: Asian Americans and the Origins of the Model Minority,” told NBC Asian America last week.
White liberals in the 1960s weaponized the experiences of Japanese Americans post-internment, branding them as “success stories” and proof that people of color had equal opportunity. This tactic was employed as an attempt to weaken the civil rights movement, Wu said. Though it gave Asian Americans room for more social mobility than black Americans, it only fed into a system of white supremacy."
If reading is too hard, maybe this will do the trick
lol this is the dumbest shit ever. You are giving me a liberal's take on why liberal viewpoint is correct and trying the pass it along as "widely accepeted" rofl. I guess this "debunks" it once again. Seriously im tired of your dishonest arguing tactics / attempt for a pathetic comeback after I trashed u and ur dumbfuck liberal communist friends on here multiple already.
Pretty sure that what is historically true doesn't belong on a side or another of the political spectrum. Your attempt at invalidating historical facts by associating them to some broad category that you dislike is the only biased and dishonest thing here.
Here are quotes from a centrist website if that makes it more helpful for you:
"Selective immigration
One possible cause of the higher performance of Asian Americans as a group is that they represent a small population in America so those who are chosen to move to America often come from a selective group of Asians. The relative difficulty of emigrating and immigrating into the United States has created a selective nature of the process with the U.S. often choosing the wealthier and more highly educated out of those with less resources, motivation or ability to immigrate."
"Often overlooked is the direct contrast of model minorities with Black Americans. Model minorities are used as a tool to discriminate against Black people with the mantra "If they can do it, why can't you?." This argument is often viewed as logical, because, at the surface, there doesn't seem to be a clearcut explanation as to why Jewish, Asian, and Irish Americans are able to thrive after experiencing racism, while Blacks still seem to be disenfranchised.[71]"
"According to Gordon H. Chang, the reference to Asian Americans as model minorities has to do with the work ethic, respect for elders, and high valuation of education, family and elders present in their culture.[50] The model minority stereotype also comes with an underlying notion of their apoliticality. Such a label one-dimensionalizes Asian Americans as having only traits based around stereotypes and no other human qualities, such as vocal leadership, negative emotions (e.g. anger or sadness), sociopolitical activeness, risk taking, ability to learn from mistakes, desire for creative expression, intolerance towards oppression or being overlooked of their acknowledgements and successes. Asian Americans are labeled as model minorities because they have not been as much of a "threat" to the U.S. political establishment as blacks, due to a smaller population and less political advocacy. This label seeks to suppress potential political activism through euphemistic stereotyping.[50]
Another effect of the stereotype is that American society may tend to ignore the racism and discrimination Asian Americans still face. Complaints are dismissed with the claim that the racism which occurs to Asian Americans is less important than or not as bad as the racism faced by other minority races, thus establishing a systematic racial hierarchy. Believing that due to their success and that they possess so-called "positive" stereotypes, many[who?] assume they face no forms of racial discrimination or social issues in the greater American society, and that their community is fine, having "gained" social and economic equality.[51][52][53]
Racial discrimination can take subtle forms such as through microaggression. The stereotyping of Asian Americans as a model minority and perfidious foreigner influences people's perceptions and attitudes towards Asians[54] and also negatively affects students' academic outcomes, relationships with others, and psychological adjustments. For instance, discrimination and model minority stereotyping are linked to Asian American students' lower valuing of school, lower self-esteem, and higher depressive symptoms.[55] Furthermore, the psychological distress of failing to meet the model minority image, such as feelings of inadequacy, self-doubt, shame, and embarrassment, is exacerbated due to the differential treatment associated with being stereotyped as a model minority and perpetual foreigner.
Furthermore, the model minority image can be a threat to underachieving Asian American students' academic experience and educational advancement. It promotes invisibility and disguises the academic barriers and psychological problems students may encounter. This is problematic because it creates a barrier for educators to better understand and assist struggling students' educational and mental health needs in order to optimize students' academic experience and social emotional development.
Asian Americans may also be commonly stereotyped by the general public as being studious, intelligent, successful, elitist, brand name conscious, yet paradoxically passive. As a result, higher and unreasonable expectations are often associated with Asian Americans.[citation needed] Also due to the model minority image, Asian American students are viewed as "problem-free" and academically competent students who can succeed with little support and without special services.[56] This emphasis that Asian Americans are being denial by their racial reality because of the assumption that "Asians are the new Whites"; therefore, they are being dismissed by their intelligence and experiences.[57] Thus, educators may overlook the instructional needs and psychological concerns of underachieving Asian American students. The model minority stereotype can also contribute to teachers' having a "blaming the victims" perspective. This means that teachers blame students, their culture, or their families for students' poor performance or misbehavior in school. This is problematic because it shifts responsibility away from schools and teachers and misdirects attention away from finding a solution to improve students' learning experience and alleviate the situation. Furthermore, the model minority stereotype has a negative impact on the home environment. Parents' expectations place high pressure on students to achieve, creating a stressful, school-like home environment. Parents' expressed worry and frustration can also place emotional burdens and psychological stress on students.[56] "
"The model minority stereotype is emotionally damaging to many Asian Americans, since there are unjustified expectations to live up to stereotypes of high achievement. The pressures from their families to achieve and live up to the model minority image have taken a tremendous mental and psychological toll on young Asian Americans.[59][60] The model minority stereotype also influences Asian American students' psychological outcomes and academic experience. The model minority image can lead underachieving Asian American students to minimize their own difficulties and experience anxiety or psychological distress about their academic difficulties. Asian American students also have more negative attitudes toward seeking academic or psychological help[61] due to fear of shattering the high expectations of teachers, parents, and classmates.[62]"
Pretty much nothing you say is ever worth seriously responding to, because everything you say is full of sort of ridiculous statement or logical fallacies.
I have not been in this Politics Thread for very long, but I really have no idea how Baal has the patience to do this back-and-forth with you for so many posts/such a long time. It is truly incredible.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
You keep throwing the term "logical fallacies" out there all the time and its easy to do for literally anything anyone says, but without backing it up it's nothing more than a waste of internet space.
Baal generally cherry picks in a lot of his responses e.g. on the fallacy topic where Loco apparently falls under the authority fallacy for believing doctors would generally have much more to say around.. the very work they are trained to do after 10 years of education and who-knows how many experience. In theory, it could fall under the appeal to authority fallacy, only if a doctor's opinion is not based on hard data, which is an "edge" case.....It's very hard for a doctor to say anything without providing hard data.
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hiems United States. Jun 18 2020 19:14. Posts 2979
On June 18 2020 14:30 Spitfiree wrote:
You keep throwing the term "logical fallacies" out there all the time and its easy to do for literally anything anyone says, but without backing it up it's nothing more than a waste of internet space.
Baal generally cherry picks in a lot of his responses e.g. on the fallacy topic where Loco apparently falls under the authority fallacy for believing doctors would generally have much more to say around.. the very work they are trained to do after 10 years of education and who-knows how many experience. In theory, it could fall under the appeal to authority fallacy, only if a doctor's opinion is not based on hard data, which is an "edge" case.....It's very hard for a doctor to say anything without providing hard data.
Not sure if you understand. My point is that I simply do not have the patience or interest to take the time to respond to him in any serious way.
Loco's unique talent is that he is like a retarded social-justice zombie. You basically take the time and point out why xyz argument/fallacy whatever else is retarded and you murder him in front of the whole site. Then, he comes back with another retarded argument (which you destroy once again), then he comes back with another, then with another until you simply do not have the interest/time/energy/patience whatever you call it to take the time to respond to another one of his badshit stupid posts. I think I referred to this several months ago (Loco's infinite rabbit-hole technique). I simply do not have any more interest in trying to deal with this idiot any longer. Going into specific details as to why xyz fallacy is clearly retarded is only going to fuel this idiot for more idiotic arguments.
Not sure what you are talking about. Baal destroys basically all of Loco's arguments and if you think he addresses just one part of Loco's argument it is because the rest of the argument will fall apart after since it is is based on that key component. If Baal does not address something it is not "cherry-picking" anything. A person only has so much time/patience to deal with someone and Baal only has so many hours in the day. The fact that Baal is an actual normal human being that is functional in society (unlike Loco who I have no idea how this guy pays the bills) and has been actually going back and forth with this guy for so long is unbelievable.
I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]
On June 18 2020 14:30 Spitfiree wrote:
You keep throwing the term "logical fallacies" out there all the time and its easy to do for literally anything anyone says, but without backing it up it's nothing more than a waste of internet space.
Baal generally cherry picks in a lot of his responses e.g. on the fallacy topic where Loco apparently falls under the authority fallacy for believing doctors would generally have much more to say around.. the very work they are trained to do after 10 years of education and who-knows how many experience. In theory, it could fall under the appeal to authority fallacy, only if a doctor's opinion is not based on hard data, which is an "edge" case.....It's very hard for a doctor to say anything without providing hard data.
The field is corrupted by politics, they run a peer-review circle that destroys the scientific process proven by the "grievances studies" hoax these clowns published, there aren't seriouis scientists discussing scientific data, they are ideological academics with an agenda, even Drone acknowledges that the field has a political bias, this is blatantly obvious to anyone who isn't Loco.
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United States. Jun 18 2020 05:14. Posts 8992
