Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 235

I'm probably going to get me too'd cuz this is just straight up sexual abuse.

I guess it's gg.

Spare me the whataboutism. Just because you add a picture you took doesn't make it any less whataboutism. Close proximity doesn't mean jack shit: you are not there, aware, or involved. Also, two separate peoples and issues.

Spare me the appeal to emotion and appeal to hypocrisy as well. Bottom line is that you have failed to provide evidence for your claim that all indigenous people in Mexico are brutal and intolerant towards LGBT folks, end of story. Here's evidence to the contrary:

"Acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism has been documented among various indigenous peoples of Mexico, most notably the Isthmus Zapotecs and Yucatán Mayas. The Isthmus Zapotecs recognize a traditional third gender, known as muxe, an intermediate between male and female. Muxes are assigned male at birth, but typically act and behave like women and do both women and men's work. Having a muxe in the family is perceived as good luck and a blessing.[12] They are often referred to as transgender in English language publications."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Mexico

"Same-sex marriages are performed without any restrictions in Mexico City, Aguascalientes, Baja California, Baja California Sur, Campeche, Chiapas, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Colima, Jalisco, Hidalgo, Michoacán, Morelos, Nayarit, Nuevo León, Oaxaca, Puebla, Quintana Roo and San Luis Potosí, as well as in certain municipalities in Guerrero, Querétaro and Zacatecas. Additionally, civil unions are performed in Mexico City and the states of Coahuila, Campeche, Michoacán and Tlaxcala."


You haven't even provided any kind of evidence that your friend was killed by an indigenous person, you only mentioned that she died in a "similar town", which doesn't say anything about the attackers. You just said that regular people go in and out of these towns all the time, so if we just use common sense, regular people could have assaulted her. And, obviously, there isn't even a "similar town." This is the only town that has this kind of autonomous horizontal structure outside of the zones held by ELZN. One of the most well-known highlights of Cheran is their separation of Church and government, which makes it even less likely that they would persecute members of their own community based on religious convictions.

Anyway, this is just a pointless tangent that you have used to distract from the main issue that this is, as a whole, a far-leftist society that opposes capitalism and individualism. Even if you were right that they are homophobic, it wouldn't take anything away from that fact.

"Of course they aren't right wing ideologically, I've said that already 2 times, they are functionally because they don't have a socialist economic sistem, they are capitalists, they have currency, property, markets etc.

Currency, property, and "markets" (I assume you mean trade) do not necessitate a capitalist economy, so they cannot be used to prove the existence of capitalism. These things have existed prior to capitalism and still exist in parts of the world that are explicitly anti-capitalist. What defines a capitalist economy is CAPITAL accumulation, which is based on surplus extraction and a rigid workplace hierarchy. Cheran's workplaces are co-operatives, they are not hierarchical. There are no bosses who run factories and decide on the wages of the employees, they are decided by the council, which is democratically elected. This is clearly not how a right-wing libertarian local economy works as you claim.

You're also backtracking now by using "markets" instead of "free market" because you know that you have been proven wrong and there is no free flowing of capital involved there.

You often mention "left-wing dictatorships", which also use currency, trade and have property. Why do you not speak of them as functionally right-wing and you instead call them socialist and communist? What is it about Venezuela, just to pick one random example, that makes it left-wing functionally, while Cheran is right-wing functionally?

wat? are you asking me why do people need private property? ffs.

Yes, and you are dodging the topic. A perfect analogy for this exchange is the following:

Loco: These people are apparently living just fine on a vegan diet
Baal: They are not vegans because they are still alive and you absolutely have to eat non-vegan things in order to stay alive.
Loco: What makes you think that?
Baal: Look, they are still alive, so obviously they are consuming meat or other animal products, since humans are omnivores.
Loco: Can you show me evidence that it is obligatory for human beings to eat animal products in order to survive?
Baal: wat? you're asking me to prove that humans are omnivores? ffs.


People do not need private property any more than they need animal protein to live if they choose to live as such. We need property, yes. We need protein, yes. The extra qualifiers that you assume are necessary are purely ideological. If you have a paper that says "this is my car" it doesn't turn it into "private" property. Private property necessitates some institutional enforcer to grant property rights in the first place. When you have a direct democracy based on communal ownership you have no such enforcement. Things such as land and houses are used or worked based on the value that they provide to those using and working them. You can't just do whatever you want with them, in them or on them, which you can when they are privatized.

Great, I have a friend who lives in Michoacán, so if I get him to get on video of somebody who tells on camera how he is renting property (house, storefront etc), what do you say if we bet 10k, it obv has to be escrowed.

What in the fuck are you talking about? This is so vague. The subject we've been arguing about this whole time is whether Cheran has freed itself from the capitalist structure of the rest of Michoacán, and you make it sound like your friend finding someone in the whole of Michoacán that is renting a place would somehow be proof that Cheran is capitalist. Did you mean that he would go to Cheran specficially and ask people there? If so, you should have said that.

I would be fine with using an escrow and making a sizable bet if there was a way to make this bet legitimate, but obviously I cannot trust your friend who lives in a poor town and who would surely love to make the easiest money of his life by getting someone to lie on camera for a few minutes. If he could actually meet with people who are known figures in the movement (verifiable online) and ask them about it then I'd say that's good enough, but I wouldn't bet nearly as much as 10k because with even a chunk of that kind of money you could get pretty much anyone to lie. They'd be making more in a few minutes than they do in an entire year of hard work. If you insist that it has to be a huge amount of money then you are just trying to dodge in the most dishonest way possible.

Loco: These people are apparently living just fine on a vegan diet Baal: They are not vegans because they are still alive and you absolutely have to eat non-vegan things in order to stay alive. Loco: What makes you think that? Baal: Look, they are still alive, so obviously they are consuming meat or other animal products, since humans are omnivores. Loco: Can you show me evidence that it is obligatory for human beings to eat animal products in order to survive? Baal: wat? you're asking me to prove that humans are omnivores? ffs.

This is getting pretty embarrassing... :D

Interesting debate right here. Not sure who to trust. Baal lives 10 minutes from the indigenous poors so his personal experience makes him very qualified to speak on these issues. It's just like how I'm super qualified to speak on what it's like to be homeless and living in poverty because my $3,000/month apartment is 10 minutes away from a homeless encampment and I regularly interact with the poors. But on the other hand Loco has clearly been researching this topic for a considerable length of time - doing a google search for LGBT rights in Mexico and a control + f for indigenous and copy/pasting everything that agrees with you is no easy task. But Baal also has dumb and dumber to cheer him on. Tough call.

On June 26 2020 19:21 blackjacki2 wrote: Interesting debate right here. Not sure who to trust. Baal lives 10 minutes from the indigenous poors so his personal experience makes him very qualified to speak on these issues. It's just like how I'm super qualified to speak on what it's like to be homeless and living in poverty because my $3,000/month apartment is 10 minutes away from a homeless encampment and I regularly interact with the poors. But on the other hand Loco has clearly been researching this topic for a considerable length of time - doing a google search for LGBT rights in Mexico and a control + f for indigenous and copy/pasting everything that agrees with you is no easy task. But Baal also has dumb and dumber to cheer him on. Tough call.

It depends what you mean by "this topic". I have been researching the broader subject of political economy with a focus on this type of horizontal organization for a couple years. The Cheran experiment itself was something I discovered recently, but since then I did a lot more research on them than just Wikipedia. I bought the most up to date book on the subject and read it; I looked at several news articles and documentaries about them; I checked out their YouTube channel directly to see what they are doing (they are subtitled in English). I don't get why you are cherry-picking a single thing that I copy-pasted from Wikipedia as if it was representative of my knowledge of the subject? There's 3 other pages of debate before that. It's some next-level bad faith to ignore every single argument and external source I have used to back up the things I've been saying and just saying "lul copying from wikipedia to support your biases, everyone can do that!"

What is even the point of vaguely implying that Wikipedia is not reliable in this case? If the claim is that all Mexican indigenous cultures are intolerant of LGBTQ people, I only need to find a few examples of indigenous cultures that are tolerant in order to prove it wrong. I copy-pasted one thing from Wikipedia because it was relevant to prove Baal's pathetic over-generalization wrong. It doesn't mean that they are no indigenous cultures who are intolerant or violent, that's besides the point. What is this nonsense about "presenting both sides"? Why should I try to present the other side of a failed argument? I've already said that there is no evidence to back up his claim that they would murder LGBTQ people but that I did not deny that it was possible, just that it seems unlikely since there has not been a single report of a LGBTQ person being killed there since the uprising, and they separate the church from the government. It isn't confirmation bias to point those things out.

There is nothing interesting about this debate. This is just sad. Baal doesn't even have a basic 30-seconds-reading-of-wikipedia understanding of what defines capitalism and socialism, despite having debated the subject for over a decade, and he is patting himself on the back for it. He doesn't understand that capitalism involves capital (hence the fucking name) and an employee-employer wage labour relationship. He said the same dumb shit when we were debating on Rojava: "durr hurr they have currency and property and do trade, they are not socialists". Like, literally no one believes that, including his own political faction. It's called capitalism, not currencyism. Anyone who is not desperately invested in antagonizing me can easily figure out that he is completely full of shit and imo he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that.

On June 26 2020 21:04 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2020 19:21 blackjacki2 wrote: Interesting debate right here. Not sure who to trust. Baal lives 10 minutes from the indigenous poors so his personal experience makes him very qualified to speak on these issues. It's just like how I'm super qualified to speak on what it's like to be homeless and living in poverty because my $3,000/month apartment is 10 minutes away from a homeless encampment and I regularly interact with the poors. But on the other hand Loco has clearly been researching this topic for a considerable length of time - doing a google search for LGBT rights in Mexico and a control + f for indigenous and copy/pasting everything that agrees with you is no easy task. But Baal also has dumb and dumber to cheer him on. Tough call. It depends what you mean by "this topic". I have been researching the broader subject of political economy with a focus on this type of horizontal organization for a couple years. The Cheran experiment itself was something I discovered recently, but since then I did a lot more research on them than just Wikipedia. I bought the most up to date book on the subject and read it; I looked at several news articles and documentaries about them; I checked out their YouTube channel directly to see what they are doing (they are subtitled in English). I don't get why you are cherry-picking a single thing that I copy-pasted from Wikipedia as if it was representative of my knowledge of the subject? There's 3 other pages of debate before that. It's some next-level bad faith to ignore every single argument and external source I have used to back up the things I've been saying and just saying "lul copying from wikipedia to support your biases, everyone can do that!" What is even the point of vaguely implying that Wikipedia is not reliable in this case? If the claim is that all Mexican indigenous cultures are intolerant of LGBTQ people, I only need to find a few examples of indigenous cultures that are tolerant in order to prove it wrong. I copy-pasted one thing from Wikipedia because it was relevant to prove Baal's pathetic over-generalization wrong. It doesn't mean that they are no indigenous cultures who are intolerant or violent, that's besides the point. What is this nonsense about "presenting both sides"? Why should I try to present the other side of a failed argument? I've already said that there is no evidence to back up his claim that they would murder LGBTQ people but that I did not deny that it was possible, just that it seems unlikely since there has not been a single report of a LGBTQ person being killed there since the uprising, and they separate the church from the government. It isn't confirmation bias to point those things out. There is nothing interesting about this debate. This is just sad. Baal doesn't even have a basic 30-seconds-reading-of-wikipedia understanding of what defines capitalism and socialism, despite having debated the subject for over a decade, and he is patting himself on the back for it. He doesn't understand that capitalism involves capital (hence the fucking name) and an employee-employer wage labour relationship. He said the same dumb shit when we were debating on Rojava: "durr hurr they have currency and property and do trade, they are not socialists". Like, literally no one believes that, including his own political faction. It's called capitalism, not currencyism. Anyone who is not desperately invested in antagonizing me can easily figure out that he is completely full of shit and imo he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that.

I'm talking specifically about the LGBT tolerance of their society. I'm just giving you an outside opinion of what this debate look like:

Baal: these people are traditional and hate deviancy and I know it for a fact cause I have a trans friend that was murdered and my house is 10 minutes from this other indigenous society and I interact with them regularly

Loco: There's no evidence to support your claims and it's likely you are wrong because their council is secular and you don't live among them and wikipedia says gay marriage is legal there

From over here it just looks like two people having a debate on a topic neither of them are qualified to talk about

Right, except that I've admitted ignorance at the beginning on this subject and merely expressed skepticism and asked for evidence, but as per usual, Baal doesn't let go of his stupid tangents, and I allow myself to be dragged further than need be.

On June 26 2020 18:26 CurbStomp wrote: Show nested quote + Loco: These people are apparently living just fine on a vegan diet Baal: They are not vegans because they are still alive and you absolutely have to eat non-vegan things in order to stay alive. Loco: What makes you think that? Baal: Look, they are still alive, so obviously they are consuming meat or other animal products, since humans are omnivores. Loco: Can you show me evidence that it is obligatory for human beings to eat animal products in order to survive? Baal: wat? you're asking me to prove that humans are omnivores? ffs. This is getting pretty embarrassing... :D

I thought the same thing... I was honestly shocked by how retarded that analogy was.

On June 26 2020 19:21 blackjacki2 wrote: Interesting debate right here. Not sure who to trust. Baal lives 10 minutes from the indigenous poors so his personal experience makes him very qualified to speak on these issues. It's just like how I'm super qualified to speak on what it's like to be homeless and living in poverty because my $3,000/month apartment is 10 minutes away from a homeless encampment and I regularly interact with the poors. But on the other hand Loco has clearly been researching this topic for a considerable length of time - doing a google search for LGBT rights in Mexico and a control + f for indigenous and copy/pasting everything that agrees with you is no easy task. But Baal also has dumb and dumber to cheer him on. Tough call.

The more you guys talk about indigenous interactions in Mexico the clearer it is to me how clueless you really are and why Loco doesn't get many things and his "listening to people" has its merits, sadly he doesn't do that even if he think he does.

I put the picture from my house to show that our culture is closely entwined, unlike in your countries, indigenous people aren't a tiny minority living in far away reserves, they are the majority of the country and all the lines are blurred, every méxican have indigenous blood, in fact my mom's family has Purepechan's ascendency, who funnily enough originate from Michoacán, Cherán ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pur%C3%A9pecha ), but please, you geniuses, keep enlightening me about my own country, how my culture works what we believe and what we don't and about my own indigenous lineage, clearly you two who have never even set foot in a latinamerican country must know better, because you read an article in TNY and have google

I knew you would mention muxes lol, the zapotecas had a 3rd gender yeah but also the Aztecs punished homosexuality with death, and the Mayans punished sodomy by killing them in an oven but at the same time having homosexual rituals, however this homophobic culture doesn't come from prehispanic cultures, they dont worship their old gods, they are all catholics so I assume its a mixture of catholicsm + the drive to keep deviancy away.

If you want stats my friend, then prepare to be bitch slapped:

Mexico has the highest reported LGBT hate crimes in the world only after Brazil (I suppose the middle east simpy don't report these).
In Michoacan the first half of 2009 46 gay men were murdered, only 1/4 of these cases are estimated to be reported, also the police doesn't follow up on them leading to a 2% conviction rate.
In México a gay person is killed every 2 days.
Homophobia in México has a correlation with social class 58% of lower class LGBT people report discrimination its worse problem while only 37% of middle class people do.
México polls show that only 20% of the population approves having sex with your same gender.

Source: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversidad_sexual_en_M%C3%A9xico

I didn't think stats would be neccesary, all of my gay friends know to tone it down when visiting poor towns I mean, this is common knowledge to everyone, if you think its safe to parade in your rainbow flag booty shorts in the remote poor and inidgenous parts of the world you are more deluded and sheltered than I believed.

-----------------------------------------

The funny thing is that this iis irrelevant but I knew this was a perfect trap because I knew your cognitive dissonance is so strong that you wouldn't be able to resit and you would bite and go into a Don Quixotesque quest ramming the windmills like a fool trying to deny what almost every person knows is true, and you didn't dissapoint

On June 26 2020 21:04 Loco wrote: he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that.

Nonstop SJW bitching about "ableism" yet you make the same insults but think its ok because you finish with a "but there is no shame in that".

You hypocricy is disgusting.

back to memes:

^Lol

I had a thought the other day - How do we know how many movies pass the Bechdel test unless we assume what genders the characters identify as? Maybe Arnold and his platoon identify as female in Predator. It's a movie about chicks in the jungle being stalked and killed by an alien monster.

Sometimes I wonder what it's like to be autistic and trying to keep up with all the illogical and contradictory PC bullshit rules that are in the world.

On June 27 2020 06:04 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2020 21:04 Loco wrote: he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that. Nonstop SJW bitching about "ableism" yet you make the same insults but think its ok because you finish with a "but there is no shame in that". You hypocricy is disgusting.

It's not an insult, it's an observation. It's clearly not something trivial, and there is nothing funny about it. That people seek help when they face challenges or that you think that having a learning disability makes you look less smart or cool and therefore assume it is an insult is not something I can control, but it's not something that I personally believe.

On June 27 2020 10:15 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2020 06:04 Baalim wrote:   On June 26 2020 21:04 Loco wrote: he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that. Nonstop SJW bitching about "ableism" yet you make the same insults but think its ok because you finish with a "but there is no shame in that". You hypocricy is disgusting. It's not an insult, it's an observation. It's clearly not something trivial, and there is nothing funny about it. That people seek help when they face challenges or that you think that having a learning disability makes you look less smart or cool and therefore assume it is an insult is not something I can control, but it's not something that I personally believe.

You have used the "you don't have a degree in psychology/sociology" -line as a counter argument many times and here you are diagnosing Baal lol.

On June 26 2020 19:21 blackjacki2 wrote: Interesting debate right here. Not sure who to trust. Baal lives 10 minutes from the indigenous poors so his personal experience makes him very qualified to speak on these issues. It's just like how I'm super qualified to speak on what it's like to be homeless and living in poverty because my $3,000/month apartment is 10 minutes away from a homeless encampment and I regularly interact with the poors. But on the other hand Loco has clearly been researching this topic for a considerable length of time - doing a google search for LGBT rights in Mexico and a control + f for indigenous and copy/pasting everything that agrees with you is no easy task. But Baal also has dumb and dumber to cheer him on. Tough call.

This is what I call quality content

On June 27 2020 10:15 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2020 06:04 Baalim wrote:   On June 26 2020 21:04 Loco wrote: he should seek some professional help because he seems to have gone on for 3 decades with at least one undiagnosed learning disability. I don't mean to sound offensive by saying that, I don't believe there is any shame in that. Nonstop SJW bitching about "ableism" yet you make the same insults but think its ok because you finish with a "but there is no shame in that". You hypocricy is disgusting. It's not an insult, it's an observation. It's clearly not something trivial, and there is nothing funny about it. That people seek help when they face challenges or that you think that having a learning disability makes you look less smart or cool and therefore assume it is an insult is not something I can control, but it's not something that I personally believe.

pathetic.

You are mentally challenged, its not an insult, it's an observation and not something trivial, get that checked out bro.

not saying your right and wrong on this topic (im not following this discussion), but saying 'i live here' as a defense is not a good one, particularly if it's as large as something like a nation. Thought i'd bring this up because its a weak defense and you use it a lot. I've met poli sci graduates from my own country that didn't know about real wage stagnation in new zealand since 1984, which to me means they know little about what the political system is, and neither do most of the indigenous population here (i'm guessing-but from my experience probably not), and i have leftist friends from south east asia that support derterte, which i critique instantly. As with the broad views on culture...there are many different groups, classes and cultures within nations, and all nations have classes with different opposing views-it's very suspicious to repeatedly appeal to some epistimelogical advantage from living in a country.

Obviously this applies to critiquing anything you have not been a part of or experienced, i don't see you applying this same principle to critiquing social/political movements you've never been a part of, (which is perfectly fine to do, but you should realise you have double standards with this principle).