Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 256

On July 24 2020 21:46 Loco wrote: I'm used to hearing from the racist/accelerationist one, just not the principled libertarian one. Although this guy's father is a huge racist too.

well. Who isn't.

He doesn't seem to be, for one.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Antifa's finest.

I saw the video and it's fucked up. The guy is an unstable idiot and he's going to pay for his idiocy. The Trump supporter is the one who got physical first, which prompted the one stab, but it's obviously not a valid justification because he wasn't in danger. The Trump supporter will recover just fine, he was able to walk pretty normally after. Thank god the unstable idiots on the left don't actually kill people, unlike your heroes who go on shooting sprees to kill brown and black people by the dozens.

Anyhow, this has nothing to do with "antifa politically motivated stabbing". That article is filled with lies and half truths and serves only the one purpose of encouraging more violence against protesters and more law enforcement overreach. No wonder it's written by Ian Miles Cheong, some trashy neo-fascist conspiracy theorist whom I've denounced on here before. If you want to be informed you don't get your news from paid agitators who live in Malaysia and have no skin in the game. Real journalists do on the ground reporting, they don't consistently lie and misinform the public about what's happening in places where they don't live.

Edit: lol, even using your own source I can debunk that garbage article. The so-called out of control antifa mob who "doesn't care about black people since they just stabbed one" is the same who actually beat up the guy who did the stabbing somehow. You're pathetic for spreading this trash.

i bet that uncle tom got himself stabbed on purpose right Loco

totally misrepresents antifa. they just want to peacefully burn down courthouses and police stations. wouldn't hurt a black guy even if he was a trump supporter or police officer, which they would otherwise beat or kill as we've seen

Loco is very consistent in his beliefs so I'm sure if an alt-right guy stabbed a black BLM protestor he would also characterize it as just an unstable idiot and the stabbing as apolitical and nothing to do with white supremacy or the proud boys. No double standard here.

On July 26 2020 19:34 blackjacki2 wrote: Loco is very consistent in his beliefs so I'm sure if an alt-right guy stabbed a black BLM protestor he would also characterize it as just an unstable idiot and the stabbing as apolitical and nothing to do with white supremacy or the proud boys. No double standard here.

Well, no, because that's the whole point of identitarian hate groups: to harm minorities. The only way there is an equivalence between those two scenarios is if antifa is also a hate group, and if most of the protesters there are antifa activists, and they hijacked the BLM group and supported the stabber. Which is obviously false on all counts... do you really not see that? You have video evidence under your eyes that they immediately punished the stabber... how do you explain this exactly? You can say whatever you want about antifa being violent, but antifa isn't the majority of protesters, and it isn't a hate group, and the protesters did not support the stabbing. They literally dragged the stabber into police custody.


It's really not that hard to see those facts here regardless of how you feel about me. This is an isolated incident that is being weaponized by the far-right to dismiss the protesters. This is a literal quote from the far-right activist who got stabbed: ''[It]s been "reported" as a random act -- but this was a political attack in me," he said. "Antifa IS a domestic terrorist organization that doesn't care about Black Lives." Is that something that you believe too? If so, please run me through the evidence to support that belief.

This is an unstable idiot. He freaked out because the far-right counter-protester came and grabbed him by the neck. The stable response to that is to push the guy away and warn him not to get physical with you, it's not to stab him once. You do realize that antifa activists, when politically motivated to do something, including violent acts, do them as a collective? They don't do things in reaction and isolation like this. And most importantly, they dress in all black so as to increase their chances of not being recognized and getting away. This guy wasn't black clad. He wore orange pants.

Here, feel free to educate yourself a little bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

On July 26 2020 23:23 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On July 26 2020 19:34 blackjacki2 wrote: Loco is very consistent in his beliefs so I'm sure if an alt-right guy stabbed a black BLM protestor he would also characterize it as just an unstable idiot and the stabbing as apolitical and nothing to do with white supremacy or the proud boys. No double standard here. Well, no, because that's the whole point of identitarian hate groups: to harm minorities. The only way there is an equivalence between those two scenarios is if antifa is also a hate group, and if most of the protesters there are antifa activists, and they hijacked the BLM group and supported the stabber. Which is obviously false on all counts... do you really not see that? You have video evidence under your eyes that they immediately punished the stabber... how do you explain this exactly? You can say whatever you want about antifa being violent, but antifa isn't the majority of protesters, and it isn't a hate group, and the protesters did not support the stabbing. They literally dragged the stabber into police custody. It's really not that hard to see those facts here regardless of how you feel about me. This is an isolated incident that is being weaponized by the far-right to dismiss the protesters. This is a literal quote from the far-right activist who got stabbed: ''[It]s been "reported" as a random act -- but this was a political attack in me," he said. "Antifa IS a domestic terrorist organization that doesn't care about Black Lives." Is that something that you believe too? If so, please run me through the evidence to support that belief. This is an unstable idiot. He freaked out because the far-right counter-protester came and grabbed him by the neck. The stable response to that is to push the guy away and warn him not to get physical with you, it's not to stab him once. You do realize that antifa activists, when politically motivated to do something, including violent acts, do them as a collective? They don't do things in reaction and isolation like this. And most importantly, they dress in all black so as to increase their chances of not being recognized and getting away. This guy wasn't black clad. He wore orange pants. Here, feel free to educate yourself a little bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

It's an example of left-wing extremist violence. Flashback to 1.5 years ago when you were claiming that left-wing extremist violence was non-existent or virtually non-existent compared to right-wing extremist violence and using SPLC and ADL as evidence to support that view.

Per the ADL, an example of right-wing extremist murder

Jason Auvenshine, 47, killed a man on a skateboard in an auto collision then fled the scene. Prosecutors said Auvenshine was a member of a white supremacist prison gang and even had a gang manual in his vehicle at the time of the collision. In May 2018, Auvenshine was convicted of intoxication manslaughter and failure to stop and render assistance and received two concurrent life sentences.

But this stabbing hasn't made the list yet.

So for those keeping score, a white man's drunken vehicular manslaughter on another white man is a RIGHT-WING EXTREMIST MURDER but a crazy leftist stabbing a black trump supporter during a protest doesn't count because 'he's not really one of us.'

You know what else didn't make their list? The Dayton shooter that described himself as a leftist and antifa sympathizer that shot and killed 9 people.

Of course there are no instances of left-wing extremist violence when you don't actually count them and any examples of it are just dismissed with "well he's not really one of us."

If your argument is that this guy isn't really endemic of antifa because very few people in antifa would do such a thing as evidenced by the fact that they stopped him then let me just remind you that most right-wing extremists are non-violent and virtually 0% of them drive their cars through civilians. All the right-wing violent extremists are propagated by the rhetoric coming from the right and all the left-wing violent extremists are just crazy lone-wolves that aren't influenced by anyone on the left. Funny how that works.

3 federal officers likely permanently blinded by these lasers.

Yes, it's an example of "far-left extremist violence". Why do you open your post with that as some kind of "gotcha" as if I hadn't already admitted that? I said "good thing the unstable people on the far left do this instead of shooting dozens of brown or black people." That still doesn't mean that that violence was encouraged by ANTIFA!!! or by other groups that you don't like, and you get to peddle a conspiracy theory that ANTIFA DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK LIVES!!! as a result. Which was the point. Why are you arguing against a straw man instead of my point?

Can you actually answer the question of whether or not you think this narrative is true or not? Is this sufficient proof, for you, just as it was for this guy and the thousands of users retweeting it, that "antifa doesn't care about black lives" and that these protests are illegitimate? Also, to return to your false equivalence, do you personally believe that ANTIFA is a hate group? And do you not believe that Proud Boys is a hate group? If so, what is your evidence?

The Dayton shooter wasn't included because he wasn't acting based on political motives, as per the actual facts. Facts which we have already discussed here before. He had interpersonal relationship problems with his sister, went to see her in some random bar and got a bunch of random people killed. That someone holds certain political views (a Elizabeth Warren supporter, how radical!) and engages in violence does not necessarily mean that they have engaged in political violence, nor does it mean that you get to create a false narrative as a result. He didn't target anyone who was his political enemy, which is what the SPL counts as political violence. Maybe the SPL got one thing wrong with the vehicular manslaughter, I don't really remember, who cares? How is this relevant?

The Dayton shooter also held a lot of fucked up views since childhood and he kept a kill list with like a dozen names for girls in his high school that he wanted to kill. Does that mean that ANTIFA DOESN'T CARE ABOUT WOMEN'S LIVES!!!!!!!! .... ?

If your argument is that this guy isn't really endemic of antifa because very few people in antifa would do such a thing as evidenced by the fact that they stopped him then let me just remind you that most right-wing extremists are non-violent and virtually 0% of them drive their cars through civilians. All the right-wing violent extremists are propagated by the rhetoric coming from the right and all the left-wing violent extremists are just crazy lone-wolves that aren't influenced by anyone on the left. Funny how that works.

No, the point is that you can't just pick and choose who you think is antifa without any evidence, and then claim that antifa supported him, or another movement which antifa supported is no longer legitimate because some person with a loose association to it did something horrible/stupid. The point is that this is being weaponized to create a false narrative about who is on the ground in Portland and for what reasons.

You don't have to remind me that most of the far-right doesn't kill people they don't like. They mostly support electing people who will do that for them. That's not news. But for those who do, they still disproportionately kill people. It's not even close. Wait, are you making the case that this is in fact not true, and the statisticians are just choosing to deliberately not include the left-wing violence in their charts?? Do you believe that left-wing and right-wing extremist violence are in fact about equal? And equal in what, number of instances or in severity too?

By the way, just so you know, this Trump supporter is already out of the hospital, and he is doing great. Meanwhile some other leftist Portlander just got shot and killed when he stood up to a guy who wanted to drive through a crowd of protesters. The killer has been released already and his name has not been released yet, but are we going to be very surprised if he's a right-winger? It looks like the far-right is celebrating this right now too... because, damn antifa activists and their lack of concern for black people, right?

Actually, I'm worried that you'll double down after grasping at straws and I don't want you to embarrass yourself blackjacki, so I'm going to give you a hand. At least you won't have that to answer to. Here's a separate database:



Not a single murder in the last four years. Wait, could it actually be more than 4 years?! *curious emoji*

Here's also a report that just freshly came out and includes numerous databases, going back to 1994:

"Donald Trump has made warnings about the threat of antifa and “far-left fascism” a central part of his re-election campaign. But in reality leftwing attacks have left far fewer people dead than violence by rightwing extremists, new research indicates, and antifa activists have not been linked to a single murder in decades.

A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator.


Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database."

‘Leftwing violence has not been a major terrorism threat’

The database was assembled by researchers at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a centrist thinktank, and reviewed by the Guardian.

Its launch comes as Trump administration officials have echoed the president’s warnings of a violent “leftwing” revolution. “Groups of outside radicals and agitators are exploiting the situation to pursue their own separate, violent and extremist agenda,” the attorney general, William Barr, said amid nationwide protests following the death of George Floyd. A new justice department taskforce on violent anti-government extremists listed “antifa” as a major threat, while making no mention of white supremacy."

Is this a Cultural Marxist conspiracy, and the real data is being suppressed from all of these databases somehow?

By the way, quick bit of trivia: did the great "journalists" that you guys follow, Tim Pool, Andy Ngo, etc. or people such as Joe Rogan ever mention this a single time? These brilliant truth seekers who are just trying to inform people to the best of their ability? One would think that anyone who spends so much time ranting about antifa and left-wing extremism and about how there is a violent revolution underway would concern themselves with such data.

I would also shoot a lunatic who runs to my car and points me with an assault rifle. Sounds like shooting was justified.

On July 27 2020 11:04 Loco wrote: Actually, I'm worried that you'll double down after grasping at straws and I don't want you to embarrass yourself blackjacki, so I'm going to give you a hand. At least you won't have that to answer to. Here's a separate database: Not a single murder in the last four years. Wait, could it actually be more than 4 years?! *curious emoji* Here's also a report that just freshly came out and includes numerous databases, going back to 1994: "Donald Trump has made warnings about the threat of antifa and “far-left fascism” a central part of his re-election campaign. But in reality leftwing attacks have left far fewer people dead than violence by rightwing extremists, new research indicates, and antifa activists have not been linked to a single murder in decades. A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator. Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database." ‘Leftwing violence has not been a major terrorism threat’ The database was assembled by researchers at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a centrist thinktank, and reviewed by the Guardian. Its launch comes as Trump administration officials have echoed the president’s warnings of a violent “leftwing” revolution. “Groups of outside radicals and agitators are exploiting the situation to pursue their own separate, violent and extremist agenda,” the attorney general, William Barr, said amid nationwide protests following the death of George Floyd. A new justice department taskforce on violent anti-government extremists listed “antifa” as a major threat, while making no mention of white supremacy." Is this a Cultural Marxist conspiracy, and the real data is being suppressed from all of these databases somehow? By the way, quick bit of trivia: did the great "journalists" that you guys follow, Tim Pool, Andy Ngo, etc. or people such as Joe Rogan ever mention this a single time? These brilliant truth seekers who are just trying to inform people to the best of their ability? One would think that anyone who spends so much time ranting about antifa and left-wing extremism and about how there is a violent revolution underway would concern themselves with such data.

1. violence and terror aren't the same thing

it's very convenient when your ideology's violence is so casual and the media and public so accepting of your that they simply take it for granted. sweep it under the rug. accept it as par for the course. it would be called civil unrest or simply fall under wanton criminality that everyone comes to expect from a class of people enabled totally by the left.

rodney king riots 60 dead. george floyd already 30. but it wasn't on

2. anti white, anti republican, anti trump, anti semitic, environmentalists, obviously left wing

3. terror inherently has a political motive, you should have immediately questioned the agenda and competence of people who are purportedly cataloging terrorism while not knowing why a third of their list committed it. could be worth looking into

4. present perfect and present are not identical
"has not been" and "isn't" are not synonymous. basic stuff, my sophistry-cated friend

Loco while dying of radiation burns during a Chinese nuclear apocalypse started by them fucking around with India and Taiwan: "the most recent data from 1945-2019 indicates that actually the US is the nation behind 100% of nuclear attacks on other countries and is therefore the biggest threat. i wonder if we went back to 1492 would the data be any different hurr"

5. it's fucking obnoxious in the current climate you don't see where violent, uncivilized children like yourselves seek permission and validation, and that you get it from the enabling mainstream left. kill a black trump supporter in broad daylight, nothing to do with radical leftism. probably a false flag by one of the million KKK members who wanted an excuse to kill a negro right. meanwhile a mexican guy cuts himself shaving... TRUMP DID THIS! dolt

Police brutality against innocent nice women.

On July 27 2020 09:55 Loco wrote: Yes, it's an example of "far-left extremist violence". Why do you open your post with that as some kind of "gotcha" as if I hadn't already admitted that? I said "good thing the unstable people on the far left do this instead of shooting dozens of brown or black people." That still doesn't mean that that violence was encouraged by ANTIFA!!! or by other groups that you don't like, and you get to peddle a conspiracy theory that ANTIFA DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK LIVES!!! as a result. Which was the point. Why are you arguing against a straw man instead of my point?

That was the point that the black stabee guy was making. The point I am making is that you're an apologist for left-wing extremist violence.

Is this sufficient proof, for you, just as it was for this guy and the thousands of users retweeting it, that "antifa doesn't care about black lives" and that these protests are illegitimate?

no

Also, to return to your false equivalence, do you personally believe that ANTIFA is a hate group?

no, but I tend to be morally opposed to all stabbings regardless if the perpetrator is from a hate group

And do you not believe that Proud Boys is a hate group?

I honestly don't know much about them but it sounds like they are a hate group

The Dayton shooter wasn't included because he wasn't acting based on political motives, as per the actual facts. Facts which we have already discussed here before. He had interpersonal relationship problems with his sister, went to see her in some random bar and got a bunch of random people killed. That someone holds certain political views (a Elizabeth Warren supporter, how radical!) and engages in violence does not necessarily mean that they have engaged in political violence, nor does it mean that you get to create a false narrative as a result. He didn't target anyone who was his political enemy, which is what the SPL counts as political violence. Maybe the SPL got one thing wrong with the vehicular manslaughter, I don't really remember, who cares? How is this relevant? The Dayton shooter also held a lot of fucked up views since childhood and he kept a kill list with like a dozen names for girls in his high school that he wanted to kill. Does that mean that ANTIFA DOESN'T CARE ABOUT WOMEN'S LIVES!!!!!!!! .... ? Show nested quote + If your argument is that this guy isn't really endemic of antifa because very few people in antifa would do such a thing as evidenced by the fact that they stopped him then let me just remind you that most right-wing extremists are non-violent and virtually 0% of them drive their cars through civilians. All the right-wing violent extremists are propagated by the rhetoric coming from the right and all the left-wing violent extremists are just crazy lone-wolves that aren't influenced by anyone on the left. Funny how that works. No, the point is that you can't just pick and choose who you think is antifa without any evidence, and then claim that antifa supported him, or another movement which antifa supported is no longer legitimate because some person with a loose association to it did something horrible/stupid. The point is that this is being weaponized to create a false narrative about who is on the ground in Portland and for what reasons.

Right. I don't get to pick and choose who is antifa. That's your job.

You don't have to remind me that most of the far-right doesn't kill people they don't like. They mostly support electing people who will do that for them. That's not news. But for those who do, they still disproportionately kill people. It's not even close. Wait, are you making the case that this is in fact not true, and the statisticians are just choosing to deliberately not include the left-wing violence in their charts?? Do you believe that left-wing and right-wing extremist violence are in fact about equal? And equal in what, number of instances or in severity too?

I'm sure right-wing extremists kill more people than left-wing extremists. But I'm not an apologist for right-wing extremism so I don't even know how we got on this topic. Based on the graph in your next post that jihadi-extremists kill a lot more people than right-wing extremists especially when you look at as a % of their base (right-wingers vs muslim-americans). If you made a post claiming right-wing extremism was bad and I said jihadi-extremism is worse how is that in any way a counter to your argument?

By the way, just so you know, this Trump supporter is already out of the hospital, and he is doing great. Meanwhile some other leftist Portlander just got shot and killed when he stood up to a guy who wanted to drive through a crowd of protesters. The killer has been released already and his name has not been released yet, but are we going to be very surprised if he's a right-winger? It looks like the far-right is celebrating this right now too... because, damn antifa activists and their lack of concern for black people, rig

I heard something about this. But remember now, just because he is a right-winger doesn't mean anything, right? We have to prove the shooting was politically motivated a la Dayton shooter, right?

On July 27 2020 11:04 Loco wrote: Actually, I'm worried that you'll double down after grasping at straws and I don't want you to embarrass yourself blackjacki, so I'm going to give you a hand. At least you won't have that to answer to. Here's a separate database: Not a single murder in the last four years. Wait, could it actually be more than 4 years?! *curious emoji* Here's also a report that just freshly came out and includes numerous databases, going back to 1994: "Donald Trump has made warnings about the threat of antifa and “far-left fascism” a central part of his re-election campaign. But in reality leftwing attacks have left far fewer people dead than violence by rightwing extremists, new research indicates, and antifa activists have not been linked to a single murder in decades. A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator. Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database." ‘Leftwing violence has not been a major terrorism threat’ The database was assembled by researchers at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a centrist thinktank, and reviewed by the Guardian. Its launch comes as Trump administration officials have echoed the president’s warnings of a violent “leftwing” revolution. “Groups of outside radicals and agitators are exploiting the situation to pursue their own separate, violent and extremist agenda,” the attorney general, William Barr, said amid nationwide protests following the death of George Floyd. A new justice department taskforce on violent anti-government extremists listed “antifa” as a major threat, while making no mention of white supremacy." Is this a Cultural Marxist conspiracy, and the real data is being suppressed from all of these databases somehow? By the way, quick bit of trivia: did the great "journalists" that you guys follow, Tim Pool, Andy Ngo, etc. or people such as Joe Rogan ever mention this a single time? These brilliant truth seekers who are just trying to inform people to the best of their ability? One would think that anyone who spends so much time ranting about antifa and left-wing extremism and about how there is a violent revolution underway would concern themselves with such data.

I'm sure you'll counter my last post by saying "I'm not an apologist for left-wing extremist violence, I've already conceded it exists."

But if that's the case then what drives you to make this post to dismiss and downplay left-wing extremist violence? As SantaFairy pointed out, are we not considering environmentalists, pro-choice, anti-white, anti-trump, pro-LGBT, anti-Republican etc. to be part of the left?

On July 27 2020 11:04 Loco wrote: By the way, quick bit of trivia: did the great "journalists" that you guys follow, Tim Pool, Andy Ngo, etc. or people such as Joe Rogan ever mention this a single time? These brilliant truth seekers who are just trying to inform people to the best of their ability? One would think that anyone who spends so much time ranting about antifa and left-wing extremism and about how there is a violent revolution underway would concern themselves with such data.

I have no idea who Andy Ngo is. I barely know who Tim Pool is. I only learned of his name 1 month ago in the JRE episode with Jack Dorsey about Twitter censorship. I'm not a fan of his because I think he did an absolute shit job at defending free speech there. Instead of defending free speech he was like "You guys should ban these antifa accounts too" He basically made no attempt to contest Twitter banning people and instead whined about why Twitter wasn't also banning the people that harassed him. Maybe get off Twitter if you don't want to be harassed? The only other time I bothered to hear anything he had to say was when all the social media sites banned a bunch of people and I googled his twitter since social media censorship seems to be his issue.

Not sure why you are fixated on trying to figure out who I "follow." I guess it has something to do with your rabid tribalism and seeing where you can fit me in so that you can simply argue against the talking points of the people I follow instead of what I'm actually posting. It's like that welfare debate we had where you kept trying to imply that I was making a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" argument even though I was talking about government policy and not personal agency the entire time. It's as if you weren't arguing against me but instead arguing against some talking points by freaking Ben Shapiro or someone. I assume you spend too much time arguing on the internet and it has caused you to lump people into certain camps to make it easier for you since learning the nuanced opinions of all these faceless and nameless people is impossible.

"In a temporary restraining order issued on Thursday night, U.S. District Court Judge Michael Simon also declared reporters, photographers and legal observers exempt from any directives issued to the general public to disperse from areas where protests are taking place.

Simon said there were strong indications that journalists were being targeted by the authorities and were not simply incidentally caught up in legitimate efforts to quell violence or vandalism.

“Plaintiffs’ declarations describe situations including that they were identifiable as press, were not engaging in unlawful activity or protesting, were not standing near protesters, and yet were subject to violence by federal agents,” Simon wrote. “Contrary to the Federal Defendants’ arguments, this evidence does not support that the force used on Plaintiffs were ‘unintended consequences’ of crowd control.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07...eds-portland-force-journalists-381022

Numerous press people have been targeted by the feds so far, despite a court order preventing them to. Pretty sure that qualifies as right-wing extremist violence, right? Since your true concern is about being "critical of both sides", you won't be an apologist for this stuff blackjacki, will you? I denounced the stabbing from the start, which isn't how apologia works. Putting the stabbing into perspective isn't apologia.