Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 60

On June 02 2017 12:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: oh man, I disagree completely that Merkel has done more damage to Germany than Trump has done to the US. I think Trump's campaign did more damage to the US than Merkel's opening of the floodgates did to Germany. And his presidency is a god damn continuous disaster. Merkel's approval rating has been rising as of late, she's gonna win the election, AFD is in the 10% region. Germany is basically completely fine. If anything Germany shows that a functional, well run western society is capable of handling a mass influx of immigrants with fairly few problems; the groping of cologne and christmas market attack are lone incidents, not the new normal. Trump not signing Paris accord by itself is a way bigger problem to the US than anything Merkel has done is to germany. Honestly, I think of all heads of state in the world that I have some knowledge of, she might just be my favorite. (I actually dunno if him not signing paris accords is gonna be that consequential in terms of increasing pollution, it seems like his idiocy is just uniting the world in some type of, okay if the US is no longer gonna be a responsible actor, then we'll sideline them and pick up the tab, and individual american states and cities seem pretty determined to follow through anyway.)

The damage to Germany isn't immediate obviously, it will take a few years before it shows but it will be extremely evident.

What damage has Trump caused to the US?

On June 03 2017 00:14 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + Oh did I forget to mention that Nicaragua is actually not a part of the Paris Agreement because their president the measures there are laughable and should be MUCH HARSHER... the other country is Syria, which is demolished... So congrats to the United States, you are officially worse than North Korea on one of the most important topics on the planet What specifically do you think the US is going to do that it would not have done if it stayed in the Paris Agreement. I'm yet to read any credible op-ed's that have a better argument than "it's a bad look / bad optics". I'm not big on ancap ideology but the free market seems to be accelerating green industries just fine without international treaties needing to be involved. Half of the Paris signers vehemently refuse to build nuke plants, it's just a giant virtue signal with little teeth from what I can gather.

This!

The Paris agreement was some symbolic bullshit no country gave a fuck, there is no way it could be enforced in the first place, I've also read it stipulated 100billion of foreign aid to the US and other non-related things, bu obviously overall is bad that Trump's position on climate change is denial that is not science based.

Its also true that the free market its pointing torwards clean energy, green cars are on the rise etc, capitalism will not destroy itself, the consumer ultimate decides so chill the fuck out Engels.


Merkel's stance on nuclear power in germany is far more ignorant and harmful to the environment than anything Trump has done so far.

It's not so much about the agreement itself rather than the thing you are basically saying - " We Do Not Give A Fuck About The Planet " this gives the green light to corporations to do whatever they want. If you remove the regulator from the 3 party structure, the structure becomes useless.

Also your whole view on Merkel is quite wrong and you are implying effects which wont happen because global media doesnt cover the situation properly in Germany.

domestically, Trump is eroding the social fabric and destroying trust in institutions at rapid pace. I know that this has been happening for a while, but he makes a quarter of the population hate the other quarter, and this is really, really bad. 'Trust' between members of a country and in public institutions is immensely valuable, quite easy to tear down, and hard to rebuild. I also don't think it's fair to claim that it's the media that does it, even if the fan the flames, I really think what it boils down to is Trump being so uniquely terrible.

Internationally, he's kickstarting the asia pivot of every other country because he's turning the US into an untrustworthy laughing stock. He is 4 months into the presidency - this is normally a period of grace and civility, but his administration is a walking factory of scandals and ridiculous bs. Literally the only positive thing I think comes from Trump is that he's so terrible that political apathy becomes a less tenable and socially acceptable position

And I'm not even really touching on policies so far. I think his tax plan is going to hurt americans for decades (I think they continue to hurt from Nixon's and Reagan's tax cuts), I think the health care plan seems like a complete disaster, but I know that we have vastly different opinions of taxation and I don't see how your political ideology allows you to support universal health care. But that he is destroying international trust in America, the leader, and american trust in their own government, those aren't really debatable.

Paris accords don't go nearly far enough, but climate change is not something that you choose not to fight if you can't completely defeat it, it's something you fight as hard as you possibly can manage to. Whether it can be enforced or not is largely irrelevant, because it can certainly be assumed that countries that pledge support will do a better job accomplishing the goals than countries that refuse to sign the treaty.

About climate change:

Angela Merkel after the Fukushima incident halted any investment and development of nuclear energy and the biggest winner was Coal which now provides 42% of Germanys energy.

Basically Merkel sacrificed nuclear playing with peoples fears and ignorance for cheap political gain giving that market share to the dirtiest energy source known to man, When were your environmental outrage then?

Didn't know that and its pretty outrageous but it seems that the country still drops the total amount of damage done in the end
Thought you meant refugees and general policy of Merkel when you mentioned her though


Anyway, meanwhile 2 terrorist hits in London... I dont know if the fact that they were done so late in the evening should be weird or a message

Theresa May's lead has plummeted and those two attacks will most likely lose her the election

Abut Trumps damage:

Again, racial relations worsened in Obama's administration, the racial tension we see today obviously wasn't caused in a couple of months of Trumps administration, as I said, its like Trump giving himself credit for thousands of jobs generated when he had like 30 days in office... that wasnt his doing, it was Obama's.

Trump has eroded the trust in institutions such as? FBI, NSA and CIA? well that is absolutely amazing!, certainly it wasnt part of his plan but sending those institutions down in flames would be a great thing and you probably dislike those agencies as well.

Trump is obviously a buffoon, he lacks political experience and you add that insane narcicistic his presidency has been clumsy to say the least unlike Obama who as smooth as silk but when you truly analyze his actual scandals there really isnt any substance, the Russia accusations have cero evidence so far, and the rest of the things have been stupid things like last week we had news for days about the fucking COVFEFE typo for fucks sake.

Numbers talk much louder than words, and while your average person might lose trust in Trump when the pope makes his grumpy face when meeting with Trump actual smart money isnt losing any confidence, the US economy has not only not lost any confidence but the opposite it has been growing steadily.




How do you explain that if indeed the world is losing trust in the US and looking for other trading partners?

On June 04 2017 00:26 Spitfiree wrote: Theresa May's lead has plummeted and those two attacks will most likely lose her the election

she lost support recently but do terrorist attacks hurt her? I mean she is the conservative speaking more harsh towards terrorism why should that hurt her chances?

I'm not an economist and prefer not to comment on the economy tbh. But the way I understand it is that the economy works in cycles and current economic up or downswings are more related to Obama policies than Trump policies. Additionally, tax cuts and deregulation can totally give short term boosts to the economy, whereas tax spending (done wisely) is more likely to be positive 20 years down the line.

Anyway, did you read what merkel said? She's not one for bombastic statements, 'EU cannot completely rely on US' is about as rough as anything she's ever said. That said, I don't think the pew research for 'favorability towards the US' is out for 2017, but when it is, the european numbers will be way down from 2016. Trump's behavior during the nato summit and withdrawal from paris accords are both very fresh and the blowback isn't seen yet, but I've seen a lot of talk about how the US's completely bipolar attitude and willingness to scrap treaties just because they feel it'll be a cool campaign talking point is going to make Europe less willing to deal with them than with the completely predictable China.

I also know you don't agree, but I don't care; I think public trust in mainstream/ mass media declining is very negative and dangerous. If people were going from CNN to the atlantic, sure, I'd be absolutely delighted. But if they instead go from the new york times to facebook-twitter-youtube-infowars, that's horrible. I have a strong feeling the latter is happening more than the former (although, once again, opposition to Trump is consolidating around strong anti-trump forces, so an actor like the NYT is simultaneously gaining support and disapproval). But this trendline leads to a place where a large segment of the population ends up being unable to converse with other large segments because their world views are so different. This has been happening for a while, and sure, Trump's rise to power was only possible in an already polarized society. But he has made it significantly worse, this is collaborated by a lot of different voices, it was especially visible during the later stages of the campaign but it has hardly died down. Trump is unique in that he's so shitty that a lot of people (and frankly, I'm kinda there myself) see supporting him as an indefensible position to take. I mean, I'm fine with people having different view on policy, be it taxation levels or favoring nationalism or whatever, but Trump, The Person, is objectively a piece of shit.

I don't care about the cia or fbi or whatever, but I care a shitload about the EPA. Appointing a climate change denier as head of the environment protection agency, how the fuck do you do that if not aiming to harm the institution? Betsy Devos also seems like the kind of choice where she's appointed to fuck with public schools as a method of proving that public education sucks. I think they literally might be attempting to dismantle functional institutions to prove that they do not work.

Last, I don't actually think race relations worsened under Obama. I think black people were empowered to more visibly voice their discontent, and I think this might have made white people feel like race relations worsened, but I don't think racial discrimination increased. If anything, Obama actually did change some of the actually racist policies that were still in place. (like cocaine and crack giving such vastly different sentencing.)

Economy doesnt work in cycles, its like saying since you are gong to swing from healthy to sick, health works in cycles, and wallstreet is extremely fast to react to events due to speculation, I posted the Doe Jones that would react instantly to bad future projections, I'm not posting GDP/per capita or something that would indeed react slowly through policies.

What Merkel said is strong and interesting, we dont really know what was said at closed doors but its very clear they both represent different ideologies, Trump refusing to shake her hand was a calculated move by him, perhaps her statement is her way of not shaking his, we will see what happens, the China pivot isnt easy at all, the Chinese are ruthless and are less accountable to the public eye, If I were to bet on the stability of a deal I would rate Trump over China.

Yeah we dont agree in media I guess there isnt much point in going there now, I feel free information from multiple sources is better than controlled big media.

Of course Trump is a piece of shit, most politicians are, Obama is a piece of shit, Hillary is a piece of shit, simly judge them by their actions, not their charisma and words, Obama bailed out Bank of America, Citigroup and GM and other bankers for billions!, so intead of taxing the wealthy and redistributing to the poor, he taxed the poor and gave it to the ultra rich lol, he increased Drone strikes 400% waged wars in Iraq, Afghanistan Lybia and Syria, dropped the equivalent of 1 MOAB every week in the middle east, he deported more Mexicans than any president in history ever, yet you like him, why?

Definitely seems like the intelligence community is sleeping. One of the london guys, on top of travelling to syria which should be a huge red flag, had been kicked out of his local mosque for extremism and been reported by his local imam, friends and family, for extremism, on 5 different occasions, yet nothing happens.

As for your final point baal;

Firstly, I evaluate Obama in the context of american presidents. From that group, he's above the democratic average and way preferable to any republican since Eisenhower. I like Merkel more, tbh.
Whenever I've read what economists say, they seem fairly unanimous about bank bailout being necessary. I'm really provoked by them following up with giving execs million dollar bonuses after, I wish there had been some laws in place to hinder that, but the US recovered pretty damn well from the recession compared to other countries. I do think societal stability is very valuable on its own, it's been a long time since I thought we were so fucked that we need a french revolution type of upheaval. Fact is, when I look at gapminder.org, the period from 1990-2015 kinda ends up looking like the best period for humanity through human history. Life expectancy, education levels and access to basic health care are all on the upswing, while extreme poverty is on a serious decline. There most definitely are elements I'm not happy about, but the overall political direction of the world has never been better than during the neoliberal globalist dominance. To be honest, that's even more an indictment of political directions of any previous era, but still, if we've been doing the best we've ever been doing then I don't think it's that terrible.

I still don't have any defense of the use of drones.. However, I think literally every single american president since Herbert Hoover or whatever has ended up being far more militaristic and interventionist than what the campaign promised. Even Bush campaigned on non-interventionism iirc. This leads me to believe that it's not necessarily that much about the personal qualities of the president, but that there are such strong forces demanding a combination of action and not losing american lives. I think that's fucked, american lives are (obviously) not worth more than pakistani lives, and the possibility of conducting warfare without the blowback of losing lives is scary as hell. Either way, I don't think Obama used way more drones than any previous american president because he just likes bombing shit way more than they did, I think he used them way more because the technological advancements making it possible to conduct drone warfare happened during his reign.

Even then, I thought Obama's 'apology tour' was great, and necessary, to improve american standing in the world. I think his domestic policies, to the degree he has been able to shape them with the least cooperative congress in history, have moved the US in a positive direction in like, every single way. Once again, I don't think he goes far enough, but the direction is positive compared to the point of departure on pretty much every domestic issue. He made americans feel like health care is a right rather than a privilege. LGBT rights, hugely positive. Environment, I don't think he had the power to do more than he did. Education there are some areas where I disagree, but they're kinda from the opposite pov of the usual republican criticism. On tax reform there were some measures to make stuff more equitable..

Lastly, I don't think piece of shit is a binary term. I'm not gonna argue against your idea of Obama as a piece of shit (even if I don't agree, it's fair enough that you feel that way), but I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that 'he's a piece of shit, donald trump is a piece of shit, so they are equal'. If Obama is a small, dried up turd, then Trump is a leaky septic tank. One is easier to clean up than the other.

Actually I agree with what mostly you said except the bailouts, the people who said they were necessary were the same people who never saw the bubble coming, they are idiots and shills, the only guy who publicly talked about the real state bubble, Peter Schiff actually supported letting those corporations fail, you said it yourself, the bonus are irrefutable evidence of the spirit and motives of these bailouts, they went bust because they were defrauding the public, not only avoided jail but the people picked up the check and they gave themselves bonuses, fuck that and fuck Obama for it.

Yes Obama of course doesnt want to personally bomb the shit of random kids in the middle east, but he didnt have the moral integrity to stop it, he let the industrial complex continue killing for profit, he sold weapons to the Saudis, and you know what I wouldnt do that, and neither would you, I dont think "oh its complex" is an excuse, Obama supported the murder or hundreds of thousands for profit, no man involved in that can be a good man.

It appears to me that you are judging presidents as some kind of abstract leader figure responsible for the course society takes, since you like where the world went under Obama's leadership, you seem is a a good guy, and the opposite for Trump, but as individual both these men would rot in hell for the atrocities they do.


Anyway this is going nowhere really, you didnt reply to the idea that the black community problem is mostly caused by the lack of fathers a problem caused by welfare.

On June 04 2017 18:52 VanDerMeyde wrote: Show nested quote + On June 04 2017 12:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: Definitely seems like the intelligence community is sleeping. One of the london guys, on top of travelling to syria which should be a huge red flag, had been kicked out of his local mosque for extremism and been reported by his local imam, friends and family, for extremism, on 5 different occasions, yet nothing happens. Because there are 23.000+ potential jihadists in UK alone. And they dont have enough resources to control everyone. And if they did start to kick out extremists like this there would be massive protests from leftists idiots all over Europe

Exactly.

And when people want to talk about having a proper control from migration to avoid they are called racists

Jordan Peterson tweeted something that seems reasonable about migration, basically that western countries should make a list of countries sorted by "agrees with western values" and allow migration in direct proportion to this list, and on low-scoring countries judge who gets in strongly based on their opposition to anti-western ideas (basically giving assylum to reformers, dissidents etc)

I would have agreed with VanDerMeyde if this was the first attack in the, however, it isn't. They can be extraditing refugees in batches and no one would bat an eye after Manchester. The problem, imo, is that the UK is in between governments right now and bureaucracy probably kills any adequate reaction.

Also about the previous question regarding May & elections... she lost between 50-80% of her lead in polls and its actually going to be super interesting now. Its quite odd indeed, as Corbyn is a socialist who won't ban migration and most likely will try to preserve all of the rights/obligations towards the EU such as free movement and free trade. I highly doubt he would give the police the authority he s claiming he would if he had the power.

The only reason Brexit was so close and vote in is that a mass amount of idiots were brainwashed into thinking the UK has a migration problem ( I'm talking about EU countries not ones outside of it )

aaaaaaand Teresa May wants to regulate the internet in wake of the terrorist attack

Theres a 9th level in Dante's inferno just for politicians

On June 05 2017 01:23 Baalim wrote: Jordan Peterson tweeted something that seems reasonable about migration, basically that western countries should make a list of countries sorted by "agrees with western values" and allow migration in direct proportion to this list, and on low-scoring countries judge who gets in strongly based on their opposition to anti-western ideas (basically giving assylum to reformers, dissidents etc)

Define western values in a quantifiable way that people in western societies are united in their belief in. I've seen similar suggestions to Peterson's before, but I've never seen anyone follow up when pressed to do this.

I don't really agree with the suggestion even if we get past that hurdle, although I can see the logic behind it. I don't really think people choose to believe what they believe and I think freedom of movement should ideally be a right that is available to everyone. I mean, obviously, if someone wants to come to Norway because they want to kill Norwegians, then I don't want them to be able to come to Norway, but I don't want to ban people from travelling because they find homosexuality disgusting, or whatever.