Politics thread (USA Elections 2016) - Page 64

In other news, professor advocating for white genocide saying the Republican politician shot should have left to die is totally an isolated case and not a reflection of the state of academia in american culture

NM, wrong Trinity college

as a liberal I fully support Trump potentially exercising his constitutional authority to enact a travel ban independent of Congress to stop US citizens from traveling to the DPRK after the terrible fate of Otto Warmbier

in fact it's such a great idea I'm surprised they've never thought of anything like that before

cultural marxism

It's actually simple logic
If you have a million people and 1000 of them are murderers, that doesn't make the whole group of a million murderers.

In fact by the same logic its christianity that is the problem since the USA have murdered hundred times more people than ISIS type organizaitons, for retarded reasons

On June 21 2017 16:52 Spitfiree wrote: It's actually simple logic If you have a million people and 1000 of them are murderers, that doesn't make the whole group of a million murderers. In fact by the same logic its christianity that is the problem since the USA have murdered hundred times more people than ISIS type organizaitons, for retarded reasons

I don't think that's the logic at all, the error committed by you and everyone who thinks like this, even though I know you think differently than those people in other ways, but on this point it's the same, is assuming that terror is the only bad thing in the muslim world. that everyone is angels except for jihadis, therefore the evil imperialists are worse

it's something like this
-terror exists and it's 99% islamists
-yeah but the USA has a criminal justice system and it's not perfect and this black person died
-so who can really say which is worse

it's like get your head on straight, western civilization has given you everything

just think about how incoherent that analogy was to begin with, you compared two enormously big and old things, christianity and the USA, with a specific small and new subset of something, it's not even worth trying to do the moral accounting to see who is worse because it's apples and oranges to begin with, which is the point of the sophistry

if you want to look at either side then you have to look at the same level each time you make a comparison
-which regimes are worse, the US and Europe or Iran, Baathists, Ottomans
-which society has more rape and treats women worse
-which society is safer in terms of violent and petty crime, has doctors that can treat you without throwing ramadan tantrums, has water, food, working governments and public services
-which society is better educated
-which religion keeps producing child beheaders and suicide bombers and militants and any other terrorists
-which side committed genocides in the last few decades

no the entirety of islam isn't murderers
but having a near monopoly on terrorism is just icing on the cake of assbackwardsness, they have more of almost everything that's bad

now we're at a crossroads where we have two distinct futures
-one where we use publicly funded welfare to subsidize a radical change in society by importing the unemployed, ignorant, rapists, petty and drug criminals, and most importantly people who reproduce the most so they can burden the system more and more until it breaks, and waste the achievements that we've somehow managed to get without nuking ourselves already by redistributing wealth globally (because it feels good and obviously brown people can't also learn how to have successful countries, right?), simply because it happens to benefit the elite at this moment
-and another where we actually bring the entirety of mankind into the civilized world together

https://sussex.police.uk/news/shoreha...paign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

Guy is going to jail for years becuse he posted hateful things against Islam.

But no... freedom of speech is not threatened at all

On June 21 2017 18:44 Santafairy wrote: [QUOTE]On June 21 2017 16:52 Spitfiree wrote: if you want to look at either side then you have to look at the same level each time you make a comparison -which regimes are worse, the US and Europe or Iran, Baathists, Ottomans -which society has more rape and treats women worse -which society is safer in terms of violent and petty crime, has doctors that can treat you without throwing ramadan tantrums, has water, food, working governments and public services -which society is better educated -which religion keeps producing child beheaders and suicide bombers and militants and any other terrorists -which side committed genocides in the last few decades no the entirety of islam isn't murderers but having a near monopoly on terrorism is just icing on the cake of assbackwardsness, they have more of almost everything that's bad

Usually if you present this idea to someone, they will counter that the entirety of MENA violence is caused my Sykes-Picot and "Western Intervention". It's a common rebuttal.

What's interesting about that perspective, is that it effectively causes the advocate to suggest that ethno-religious segregation is ideal. "There is all this violence because the West arbitrarily drew borders without factoring in the ethnic and religious demographics of the regions". That's before even getting into the Ottoman era where there were numerous multicultural Millets that had high degrees of ethno-religious autonomy.

Anyways, an even more interesting factor more relevant to this argument and modern politics is the near universal support I see from the general leftist spectrum for a "Free Kurdistan" or a Kurdish state.

There's a guy who's something of a friend of a friend to me who is pretty turbo-left by American standards, thinks Chapo Trap House is the best podcast ever (tbh it is pretty good!), wants full socialism now etc. He goes on and on about how the YPG and Kurdish state is the most noble movement.

The Kurds are effectively demanding an ethno-state. It's only because they're seen as a vulnerable group (and rightfully so) that their desire to establish an ethno-state is viewed positively by the pop-left. In a small bit of irony, rulers like Assad are literally trying to force a multi-cultural secular country by force and this is viewed as oppressive by the people who generally would support the same ideology (but ofc not the same means) in the west.

I'd actually be interested in a steelmanning of the position of "Kurds deserve a country where they are the ethnic majority, but certain other countries do not" if anyone wants to offer one.

As far as the Kurdish state goes, there are 30 million people which want a state, they have been slaughtered by Turkey for decades and I literally mean slaughtered like pigs. I think it was here that someone posted a video how a group of civilians was moving their injured ones while waving white flags and the Turkish army just killed them all at sight. Yeah I'm aware of the constant terrorist attacks they are conducting in Turkey as well, but if millions don't want to be a part of another nation and their own one, then its time you give them some territory.

Anyway, Santafairy we are not comparing which society is better though. I'd never argue that Islam has built a better society, the topic as i view it is which caused more harm. You keep looking at it from quite a different perspective. It is like having a Big Game Hunters match of terran vs zerg where the terran has the half of the map acclaimed and constantly shits on the zerg but when the zerg sends 3 zerglings to the terran the media there is like " OH MA GOD LOOK AT THOSE SAVAGES". No. I will not allow you to live in this hypocrisy.

The West has been a huge factor to what has happened in the Mid East since the 60s. Many of those countries were doing fine, were developing quite well and could have possibly put Islam on the side just like Turkey had before Erdogan decided to become a dictator. It was the UK, Russia, the USA that shit all over that region. You can't expect people to develop, become well educated and have actual worth to the western society if you keep shitting on them. Islam is not the source of the problem, Islam is the tool they reach for when in desperation and it is western societies that put them in that position, to begin with. I'm not mentioning Israel since Israel is basically the baby USA.


Societies are not built on religion. They are built on education. Think of the our history as species, when are the times when people reach for religion?

On June 22 2017 04:50 nolan wrote: It's a common rebuttal.

It wouldn't be a common rebuttal if it werent true.


Now the retarded things which western societies do in order to integrate the refugees, I am not supporting. The two things are not connected. I am not blaming Muslims or Islam, however I do not support the idea of suppressing someone's own society in order for a minority to eventually prosper and integrate, that is quite retarded and will obviously never work. It is sad that people which have the power to create such environment make the dumbest decisions led by "moral" beliefs which in the end will not be productive.

On June 22 2017 08:06 Spitfiree wrote: Many of those countries were doing fine, were developing quite well and could have possibly put Islam on the side just like Turkey had before Erdogan decided to become a dictator.

It's not my intention to come off snarky at all here, but anyways:

Do you think the west is responsible for Erdogan "becoming a dictator" ?

On June 22 2017 08:06 Spitfiree wrote: As far as the Kurdish state goes, there are 30 million people which want a state

I want to be clear here. The YPG, PKK, Peshmerga etc. do not simply "want a state", they want a state where ethnic Kurds are the majority and in control, to the explicit exclusion of arabs and other groups.

Again, I personally don't inherently see this as wrong, but it's certainly notable that this sort of framing is not acceptable in other circumstances.

No, I certainly do not believe the West had anything to do with Erdogan becoming a dictator, nor the people of Turkey for that matter - the elections were literally less than a percent close and he obviously had a solid part of it rigged. He has the absolute control now and anyone opposing him will simply be put in jail or will be murdered. The same thing happened in Russia. But while Putin was the result of many different social and political factors, I simply have no explanation on how Erdogan happened.

Also, no shit that they will want a nation where there are no Arabs. Arabs have been murdering them for hundreds of years, what d you expect? Would you want the leader of ISIS in your home? Obviously, my comparison is on the extreme bordering with absurdity but it is what it is. Things like that will exist, such relationship, however, get better with time as the nation progresses. The Balkans were quite split a hundred years ago and practically everyone hated each other. Yet Yugoslavia still happened. Unfortunately, such a project will never be allowed in the Balkans.

Also, you 're telling me this but you are ignoring the fact that Israel is basically a 50 years old country and they literally send all of the Jews there cause of historical evidence of that being their land from what... 1000 years ago? 2000? It was obvious that no one will be fine with that, it still happened. I am not the one to judge whether or not that was the right thing to do.

Now, this might be a contradictory statement to my thesis of relationships getting better over time as Israel obviously hasn't had the best relationship with Palestine and its mainly because Palestine won't accept the shift of paradigm. Obviously, such massive shifts need a massive amount of time to heal the beliefs of the population, however 3rd party influence has proved not to be effective nor productive but rather only cause chaos. You cannot enforce your moral beliefs upon a completely different culture.

What I mean is:

-The media is hypocritical when it comes to covering the facts objectively, which raises the hatred level towards the general muslim population which is hilarious and quite simply stupid.

- I do not support the integration of any kind of minorities through laws which specifically benefit them. I am all for equality in the sense that everyone has the same opportunity, but what he does with it is his own choice and he should take all of the consequences.

-Inner problems of nations should be solved by their local population, not by someone else. I think an exception can be done in the case of North Korea but that might be dumb as fuck as well and I'm certainly not educated enough to give an opinion which matters on the topic.

-Cases like the Kurds are insanely complex as you stated just a few of their organizations and each organization works towards a different goal. For example PKK are terrorizing Turkey, because Turkey's army is slaughtering them, while the rebels in Syria and destroying ISIS and not fighting Assad, while Assad tries to annihilate them ( obviously if ISIS didn't exist the rebels would go against Assad, hence why he s attacking them ). Overall I don't think any nation in the region would be fine with a Kurdish state, that is why it hasnt yet been established either.

On June 22 2017 08:06 Spitfiree wrote: Anyway, Santafairy we are not comparing which society is better though. I'd never argue that Islam has built a better society, the topic as i view it is which caused more harm. You keep looking at it from quite a different perspective. It is like having a Big Game Hunters match of terran vs zerg where the terran has the half of the map acclaimed and constantly shits on the zerg but when the zerg sends 3 zerglings to the terran the media there is like " OH MA GOD LOOK AT THOSE SAVAGES". No. I will not allow you to live in this hypocrisy.

I was replying to you so I don't see how you were originally trying to cure me of hypocrisy

if terran has half the map who do you suppose has the other half of the map, you're comparing apples and oranges and you don't get it. the entire terran player compared to zerglings, and I'm saying hey what about all the other things zerg has like defilers and lurkers and ultras and how come in every single category they're worse?

the reason you have to compare islamic terror to the entire western world is that we actually don't have terror otherwise, so there's no analog to compare it to. so it's not zerglings it's infested terrans and you it should ring alarm bells that only zerg seems to have them

when you say the west is more harmful than ISIS all you're saying is the west is bigger than ISIS, there's no real insight there, scale ISIS to the size and age of the western world and see which one is worse. or for that matter just look at the actual muslim world in its entirety, apples to apples, if you're really saying the west is more harmful than the muslim world we should agree to disagree

and the media is extraordinarily lax on islamic terror so I don't know where that came from

On June 22 2017 17:06 Santafairy wrote: and the media is extraordinarily lax on islamic terror so I don't know where that came from

I agree with that if you only isolate the previous 3 to 4 years timeframe. However, it'll take much more time to recover from 9/11 attacks up till then. But lets not go into "conspiracy theories".

Anyway regarding the terror part. I am guessing you are American, since Europe was getting absolutely wrecked by inner terrorism during the 60s 70s and 80s by organizations like IRA and people like Carlos the Jackal, the first is currently a political party and the latter has been supposedly proved to have been financed by a variety of western governments through offshores in Saudi Arabia. The Jackal managed to conduct an attack on OPEC meeting in Vienna. ISIS hasn't even come close to something of this magnitude. Carlos was brainwashed by Marxist ideology while IRA was based on both religious and political reasons exactly like ISIS.

Europe has basically had about 10-15 years of peace after WW2 but thats about it. Giving any attention to acts of terrorism is absolutely pointless on a global note.

In fact the period in the 70s up to the 90s is the one with most casualties from terrorist attacks in Europe's history

@VanDerMeyde I'm aware thats why I didn't want to dwell into that, however the original creation of Israel is questionable at best. As i said however Palestine just wont swallow their "pride" at this point, and its probably mostly their fault for the current situation. Using schools as places for missile firing is fucking absurd and barbaric.

And also NO, jews werent shit on for thousands of years. Yes what Hitler did cannot be described with words, but playting that card is as good as black people playing the slavery card at this point.

This is as good as the balkans blaming Turkey for occupying them for hundreds of years and literally taking their firstborn male children at birth to be put in their elite squad. That was something done only around150-200 years ago as well. Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire, nor is current society the same as the one that put the jews through hell. Plus it is funny that you mention that, but fail to realize that there are ethnicities like the kurds that are in the EXACT same situation right now as the jews were during WW2. There is practically no media coverage and they are slaughtering them on a daily basis. ISIS is probably the best thing that happened to the kurds cause that is how they got the world's attention as they are literally the only organization that is fighting them even though shitfucks like Trump and Putin say they will destroy ISIS.

I'm pretty satisfied with the level of discussion lately in here, gj gentlemen, carry on

lol, terrorism is just a propaganda term. If you look at the actual definition of terror used by 'anti terror' laws post 9/11, you could convict a lot of western leaders of terrorism just by following the definition, like any rational person. Trump (sending navy seals to attack yemen), Obama (drone strikes), and Hillary Clinton (bombing libya) all have carried out acts of terror according to their own laws. The reason people don't casually call our own leaders terrorists is because the term is supposed to be ideological, it's used for denoting enemies and people that these leaders don't like.

That's the way terrorism has always been used in history. Emperors call people they don't like terrorists/barbarians/savages, or w/e. I think in order to use the word non-idealogically we should use it for all people who engage in terror, not just ISIS and people from the MENA region.

To say that the media is lax on islamic terror is a sick joke. The empirical evidence suggests otherwise in dramatic fashion. compare the media coverage of charlie hebdo with the amount of media coverage of any comparative action taken by the US-like when the US bombed a hospital in falluja in 2003 for spreading 'propaganda'. It was glorified by the new york times, while charlie hebdo was condemned and top story in the media for days.