covid vaccine - Page 12

On October 20 2021 00:27 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 18 2021 21:00 blackjacki2 wrote:   On October 18 2021 20:34 sChOuA wrote:   On October 16 2021 00:19 Floofy wrote:   On October 15 2021 14:32 sChOuA wrote: So to everyone saying that you should get vaccinated for an altruistic reason, what you think of this recent study: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7#Fig2 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449 This data shows the huge majority of the people who are in the hospitals are the unvaccinated. This is especially true among the younger population where vaccination seems to protect the young very very well. Hmm but if you talk about hospitalization thats not for altruistic reason is it ? Also personally i think this rate will shift, because a) many of the risk group are vaccinated b) the protection seems to go down a lot after time (hence booster). Yes...? Of course the rates will shift as more people get vaccinated. The 10% unvaccinated still outnumber the 90% vaccinated in hospitals. The 9% might still outnumber the 91%. We'll probably get to a point where the 2% of unvaccinated people don't outnumber the 98% that are vaccinated. Are you going to come back and say "See, there's now more vaccinated people in hospitals than unvaccinated!" i like how u literally just make random shit up

Data is available for everyone to see on the CDC website.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

Rates of hospitalizations of adults per 100,000 based on vaccination status

Unvaccinated: 83.6
Vaccinated: 4.5

Let me whip out a calculator and.... unvaccinated people are 18.5x more likely to be hospitalized with COVID right now.

So although we aren't even at 90% vaccination yet, if we were there would still be more unvaccinated people in the hospitalized than vaccinated.


Now it's your turn to reply with "Those numbers are FAKE!!!" or whatever.

The Guinness record book should give the anti-vaxxers the award for the world's best straw grasping skills.

Wasn't Mortensen one of the ultra-extremist conspiracy theory believers when it comes to pretty much anything? You guys are wasting energy on a truly woke person, you won't ever be on his level.

Some news from around where I live...

San Francisco shut down their only location of the super popular fast food chain In N Out for not enforcing their vaccine passport system. In N Out released a statement saying they refuse to deny service to people based on the documentation they carry and refuse to be the vaccination police for any government.

“After closing our restaurant, local regulators informed us that our restaurant Associates must actively intervene by demanding proof of vaccination and photo identification from every Customer, then act as enforcement personnel by barring entry for any Customers without the proper documentation,” read a statement from Wensinger. “As a Company, In-N-Out Burger strongly believes in the highest form of customer service and to us that means serving all Customers who visit us and making all Customers feel welcome. We refuse to become the vaccination police for any government,” he continued.

The Mayor of San Francisco received criticism last month for violating her own mask mandate when she was photographed dancing and taking pictures at a bar without a mask on. She accused her critics of being the "fun police."

In other news Walgreens closed down 5 more locations in San Francisco due to widespread shoplifting. Meanwhile, car break-ins have become so rampant that the city announced a new $100,000 incentive program for people that report car break-ins. Also just a reminder that Fentanyl overdoses kill 3 times as many people in San Francisco than COVID.

If only San Francisco politicians thought rampant crime, drug abuse, pharmacies closing down, human feces on the sidewalks, used needles on the street, etc. were as big of a public health threat as eating a cheeseburger without being vaccinated.

Not to be outdone, our Governor Gavin Newsom, who had his own "rules for thee but not for me" scandal last year when he went to a friend's indoor birthday party at the French Laundry while preaching to avoid indoor dining and gatherings, came out with some new hypocrisy.

Gavin Newsom has been very pro-vaccine mandate, even making California the first state to mandate COVID vaccines for school aged children beginning next Fall. Well now he is suing to remove a vaccine mandate on prison employees. Why would a governor that favors vaccine mandates be appealing to the courts to remove a vaccine mandate on prison employees? Well according to the newspaper editorials here it might have something to do with the $1.75 million contribution that the union of the prison employees made to his reelection campaign. At least we know the price to get out of vaccine mandates.

Graphene in masks https://www.bitchute.com/video/yfrcWgkDCAL9/
Graphene in vaccines https://www.bitchute.com/video/Sdgy5Id8MUcH/

Don't worry my government just made vaccines mandatory if you'd like to enter any public closed spaces including supermarkets and gave the population 48hrs notice. Only 20% of the population is vaccinated, on average getting a vaccine certificate takes between 21 to 28 days and that's excluding the 2 week period after you obtain it in which theoretically it's shouldn't be valid. They gave a 'workaround' option for non-vaccinated people to obtain a PCR or antigen test if they'd like to use those services

They also refused to control those measures and expect every private business to do that instead of them or the business will be sanctioned (similar to your measures @blackjacki) - it seems that politicians should be classified as an entire different species that doesn't make it even close to the curve.

On October 19 2021 13:38 Floofy wrote: Show nested quote + On October 18 2021 20:34 sChOuA wrote:   On October 16 2021 00:19 Floofy wrote:   On October 15 2021 14:32 sChOuA wrote: So to everyone saying that you should get vaccinated for an altruistic reason, what you think of this recent study: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7#Fig2 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449 This data shows the huge majority of the people who are in the hospitals are the unvaccinated. This is especially true among the younger population where vaccination seems to protect the young very very well. Hmm but if you talk about hospitalization thats not for altruistic reason is it ? Also personally i think this rate will shift, because a) many of the risk group are vaccinated b) the protection seems to go down a lot after time (hence booster). Well yes there are altruitic reasons to get vaccinated. My dad is immuno supressed and he still wants to see me from time to time. If i wasn't vaccinated, i greatly increase the odds of me transmitting the disease to him. But there is also what i'd call a "macro level" of altruism. If NOBODY gets vaccinated, then we will be stuck with this virus literally forever. If EVERYONE gets vaccinated, then we could reach a point where the virus is so under control we can even give up most of the sanitary measure such as the so hated masks.

Like i wrote previously i'm not against vaccination and everyone that feels better or has close family that prefers them to be vaccinated that is fine.
Vaccination is good for the risk group and whoever else prefers to have it (however it seems antibodies go down quickly for some).
I watched the recent Joe Rogan podcast with Dr. Snjay Gupta and honestly he couldnt give really a good argument why a healthy 30 year old should get vaccinated or did i miss something ?

On October 22 2021 19:10 sChOuA wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2021 13:38 Floofy wrote:   On October 18 2021 20:34 sChOuA wrote:   On October 16 2021 00:19 Floofy wrote:   On October 15 2021 14:32 sChOuA wrote: So to everyone saying that you should get vaccinated for an altruistic reason, what you think of this recent study: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7#Fig2 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449 This data shows the huge majority of the people who are in the hospitals are the unvaccinated. This is especially true among the younger population where vaccination seems to protect the young very very well. Hmm but if you talk about hospitalization thats not for altruistic reason is it ? Also personally i think this rate will shift, because a) many of the risk group are vaccinated b) the protection seems to go down a lot after time (hence booster). Well yes there are altruitic reasons to get vaccinated. My dad is immuno supressed and he still wants to see me from time to time. If i wasn't vaccinated, i greatly increase the odds of me transmitting the disease to him. But there is also what i'd call a "macro level" of altruism. If NOBODY gets vaccinated, then we will be stuck with this virus literally forever. If EVERYONE gets vaccinated, then we could reach a point where the virus is so under control we can even give up most of the sanitary measure such as the so hated masks. Like i wrote previously i'm not against vaccination and everyone that feels better or has close family that prefers them to be vaccinated that is fine. Vaccination is good for the risk group and whoever else prefers to have it (however it seems antibodies go down quickly for some). I watched the recent Joe Rogan podcast with Dr. Snjay Gupta and honestly he couldnt give really a good argument why a healthy 30 year old should get vaccinated or did i miss something ?

I don't think you've "missed something". Gupta at times looked like a scared deer in headlights, i think sometimes he wasn't saying everything he thinks he almost looked scared of Rogan lol.
The reason a 30yo should get vaccinated is because even if he is very likely to survive the virus, he can still get sick and get complications from it, and he can spread it.
The part that was a bit more interesting is when they were talking about kids...it does appear that the odds of a kid even getting any complications from the virus are quite low. I think the reason public health push the vaccination for them is more for altruistic reasons, so they don't spread it to their parents.

On October 22 2021 19:10 sChOuA wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2021 13:38 Floofy wrote:   On October 18 2021 20:34 sChOuA wrote:   On October 16 2021 00:19 Floofy wrote:   On October 15 2021 14:32 sChOuA wrote: So to everyone saying that you should get vaccinated for an altruistic reason, what you think of this recent study: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7#Fig2 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449 This data shows the huge majority of the people who are in the hospitals are the unvaccinated. This is especially true among the younger population where vaccination seems to protect the young very very well. Hmm but if you talk about hospitalization thats not for altruistic reason is it ? Also personally i think this rate will shift, because a) many of the risk group are vaccinated b) the protection seems to go down a lot after time (hence booster). Well yes there are altruitic reasons to get vaccinated. My dad is immuno supressed and he still wants to see me from time to time. If i wasn't vaccinated, i greatly increase the odds of me transmitting the disease to him. But there is also what i'd call a "macro level" of altruism. If NOBODY gets vaccinated, then we will be stuck with this virus literally forever. If EVERYONE gets vaccinated, then we could reach a point where the virus is so under control we can even give up most of the sanitary measure such as the so hated masks. Like i wrote previously i'm not against vaccination and everyone that feels better or has close family that prefers them to be vaccinated that is fine. Vaccination is good for the risk group and whoever else prefers to have it (however it seems antibodies go down quickly for some). I watched the recent Joe Rogan podcast with Dr. Snjay Gupta and honestly he couldnt give really a good argument why a healthy 30 year old should get vaccinated or did i miss something ?

Yeah you missed how he kept bringing up the study that showed vaccinated people are less likely to become infected and transmit the virus to other. It's the same argument Fauci used when Joe Rogan first said if you're young and healthy you don't need to get vaccinated. Even Joe said "well that's a different argument, I understand that." or something to that effect.

But overall I think Gupta should be embarrassed with how he performed against Joe. He's the chief medical expert for CNN or whatever and he says he has been taking a "deep dive" into all the COVID information. Joe Rogan doesn't make it past the title of any article he cites.

I think the biggest point that Joe destroyed him on is when Gupta said "I feel like I am pretty protected from my 2-dose vaccine series, I'm 51 and healthy with no comorbidities so I don't think I really need a booster." Joe's response was "Well that's how a lot of parents feel who don't think their kid needs to be vaccinated because very few kids because seriously sick from COVID. Why is it okay for you to say you don't need a booster but it's not okay for parents to say I don't think my kid needs to be vaccinated." Gupta had absolutely no response for that, because there is no response for that. Maybe Gupta agrees with Joe that all kids don't need to be vaccinated but he just can't say it out loud. But if thinks he should be able to decide that he doesn't need a booster but healthy children should be vaccinated then he's just a hypocrite given that far more people have died from breakthrough infections than children have died from COVID.

As a soon to be 30yo I can tell you what my reasoning (and everyone's should be) for vaccinating themselves even though we're not in the risk group. All data shows that the vaccines protect the lungs from permanent damage - that's enough of a reason

Combined with all the issues that corona could put me through I'd rather take the vaccine as the risks with it are statistically justified. Pretty much all of my friends have had corona and they still lack smell and taste for months, one of whom has been like that for over a year now. None of them has had any severe issues with the virus.

The biggest side effect of the vaccine I've experienced so far are isego trying to explain to skeptical people that the data is there, the data has been tested by practically hundreds of sources, the data has been gathered from the entire planet and the test cases are literally over 3.5 billions and all point to the same thing. I've benefited from that though as now I know how to handle myself better

I'm not interested in wild conspiracy theories that are not falsifiable.

It is however interesting that some of the most successful and rational people I know fall for that and go as far as explaining that the data pushed to the public is censored and put through a propaganda framework.... Not judging though as I can understand the underlying fear of the unknown that people don't identify within themselves and their ego masks it with other emotions. Especially after events of mass fear and panic for two years

Golden

Noam Chomsky came out in favor of "isolating" the unvaccinated. He said they should have the decency to isolate themselves but if they refuse then measures should be taken the same way we lock people up if they refuse to obey traffic laws. When asked about the logistics of isolating the unvaccinated he clarified with "How can we get them food? Well that's their problem."

It seems like the vast majority of people want diverge themselves in these two opposite extremes of either COVID is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and ineffective or COVID is the apocalypse and we need to force everyone to get vaccinated or ship them off to camps. I have been arguing for a middle ground approach since basically day 1 and I have taken a ton of flak from both sides. Here's some arguments for why I think both of these polar opposites are stupid.


First of all, the people that think COVID is a "scamdemic" and it's no worse than the flu are just ignorant as fuck. Just look at Italy/Spain/New York in March to see what happens before anti-COVID measures went in place. I know people that worked in New York in Spring 2020. It was absolute chaos. It quickly became a "Do the best you can" situation. ICU patients were being put on regular hospital floors with nurses that haven't been trained to provide ICU level care. Doctors from other specialties were floating to the ICU without being trained to provide ICU level care. Medical workers were wearing garbage bags for PPE, etc. The people that don't want to get vaccinated and sit behind a computer calling COVID a scamdemic are the same people that show up at the hospital bitching and moaning about what's taking so long and why there are no beds available.


But what also happened in Spring of 2020 is other states/governors pre-emptively put in shelter-in-place orders and adopted this mantra of "two weeks to flatten the curve." The thing about an infectious disease is unless there is already some level of spread in the community, you're not actually flattening the curve. The curve doesn't exist. People also avoided hospitals and healthcare. Elective surgeries were cancelled. There were no patients. Emergency Room census cratered. There were no admissions. Entire hospital wings were being closed down, staff was being put on temporary leave or laid off.

NPR reported that in April 2020 1.4 MILLION healthcare workers were laid off

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/10/853524...spitals-lay-off-1-4m-workers-in-april

So imagine being some blue-collar worker, you own a plumbing business or a hair salon and you're told you simply are not permitted to work to support your family because we have to "flatten the curve" to give the hospitals a chance to survive. In the meantime, hospitals are sitting empty, wings are being closed down, and all the healthcare workers are either laid off watching Tiger King on Netflix or showing up to work to make TikTok videos of themselves. I posted about this in real-time in Spring of 2020 about how it's absolutely madness to simultaneously tell people that they aren't allowed to work while also having medical workers sit around and do nothing. I was calling for the lockdowns/measures to be eased in March/April 2020. In California the shelter-in-place didn't end until June if I remember correctly.

Then you also learn that the all the "emergency field hospitals" that governments and hospitals spend hundreds of millions to build sat empty and never saw any patients. There is one hospital in Nevada that I used to work at that I know saw a legit amount of patients in their parking-garage-converted field hospital, but other than that I don't know of any field hospitals that saw more than a handful of patients.

Also the "conspiracies" that people that die of a shark attack still got counted as a COVID death as long as they tested positive was true in a lot of instances. In the county where I live they overcounted 400+ deaths when the real total was about 1200. That's about a 33% increase.

https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/

If you think this was an isolated incident here's a neighboring county that was doing the same thing. Counted 500+ extra deaths when the real total was roughly 1700, about a similar sized overcounting.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/202...county-revises-covid-death-toll-down/


The thing that annoys me the most about the COVID-hysterical crowd is they literally wake up and the first thing they do is count how many people died of COVID, then they check how many people are in the ICU with COVID and how many available ICU beds are left. But these people never put a single fucking seconds thought into how many family businesses are lost forever, how much generational poverty is being created from closing down the family business, what are the impacts of kids not being able to socialize and attend school, etc. They close down the mom-and-pop store that sells window shades but you can buy window shades from Wal-Mart because they also have groceries so they're essential. Or you can buy window shades off Amazon because delivery is okay. Then the same people will bitch about how the Waltons and Jeff Bezos are becoming much more wealthy during the pandemic. Are you shitting me? All these morons just see it as a trolley problem where you can either let the train hit grandma or flip a switch and save grandma. They are too short-sighted and tunnel-visioned to see that if you flip the switch there are 20 more people around the bend that are currently out of view that the train is going to smash into.

Now we have vaccines. 69% of adults are fully vaccinated. 85% of people 65+ and older are fully vaccinated. The vaccines provide enough protection from severe illness and death that we can be 100% open and the hospitals still won't be overrun. Florida is the case study for that. They remained 100% open, even with the Delta variant and even with a Republican governor with MAGA vibes that poo-poo'd masks and other measures. That's it, we should be done now. How are we still at the point where people want to round up the unvaccinated into camps, or have the government take over the internet to censor false information or have to show your papers to eat a cheeseburger at a fast food restaurant. People need to get a grip.

My problem with Chomsky's position is that he doesn't use statistics to back it up. He needs to explain to me how much of a danger someone is if they are walking around unvaccinated, in a society where 80%+ people are vaccinated. Driving through a red light is going to kill/injure people a lot of the time so i'm not sure if the analogy is really that appropriate.

On October 22 2021 22:54 Spitfiree wrote: I'm not interested in wild conspiracy theories that are not falsifiable.

Most of these conspiracy theories seem pretty darn falsifiable to me.

On October 26 2021 01:50 Stroggoz wrote: My problem with Chomsky's position is that he doesn't use statistics to back it up. He needs to explain to me how much of a danger someone is if they are walking around unvaccinated, in a society where 80%+ people are vaccinated. Driving through a red light is going to kill/injure people a lot of the time so i'm not sure if the analogy is really that appropriate.

In the U.S. we've been vaccinating people for about 10 months and so far 11,000 vaccinated people have died of COVID. A bad flu season can kill 60,000 people in a few months. Of course the source population for flu deaths is the entire population whereas the source population for breakthrough COVID deaths is only among those people that have been fully vaccinated, which is still only half the country.

But I think the bigger issue is that the vaccines have been shown to be not that fantastic at preventing transmission and the probability of completely eliminating COVID seems unlikely. So you can't even conclude that 100% of those breakthrough deaths will be preventable with forced vaccination or other authoritarian measures. In that case only some fraction of those 11,000 deaths would be preventable. So breakthrough deaths are already only a fraction of flu deaths and preventable breakthrough deaths are likely only a fraction of that fraction. People spent their entire lives not giving a fuck about the people that died of the flu virus but if some small fraction of people die from the coronavirus despite being vaccinated we need to ship the unvaccinated off to camps.

Btw Stroggoz you should have an interesting perspective if you are in fact from New Zealand. What's your sentiment and the general sentiment of the country there? It seems New Zealand had been incredibly successful at completely eradicating at Alpha-COVID but now they've given up on that strategy with Delta and are transitioning to a "living with COVID" phase that every other country is in

Official statistics from April in my country (keep in mind people are giga-skeptics making them antivax and only 20% of pop is vaccinated):

Total deaths since April - 10,003
Total deaths of vaccinated people since April - 206 (150 of which are 70+ and only 12 under the age of 50)

Also top5 worldwide on deaths per capita in the past few weeks

Please tell me how bad the vaccines are

On October 26 2021 21:18 Spitfiree wrote: Official statistics from April in my country (keep in mind people are giga-skeptics making them antivax and only 20% of pop is vaccinated): Total deaths since April - 10,003 Total deaths of vaccinated people since April - 206 (150 of which are 70+ and only 12 under the age of 50) Also top5 worldwide on deaths per capita in the past few weeks Please tell me how bad the vaccines are

Yeah, I'm not saying Chomsky is wrong, just that he needs more empirical data to convince anyone. I just don't really know how many people would get killed by antivaxxers if say a small % of the population is antivaxxing. 11,000 people dying in 10months is still pretty significant but it isn't the same amount of deaths that would happen if everyone decided to drive through red lights. Havn't actually followed this kind of stuff as much as most people. We restrict a lot of other freedoms in society for causing even one death, so I don't yet see why Chomsky's position is that extreme. I don't think Chomsky ever mentioned camps either. Kinda feel like the word 'camp' is being used deliberately because of it's connotations with nazi's.

@blackjack, basically I don't know enough to have a strong opinion here. One critique of Jacinda i'd have is that she took an awfully long time to vote against patenting covid related drugs: She basically waited to see what America/Australia's position is. Her economic recovery plan for covid has once again enriched property owners. The bad things I have to say about her arn't really to do with covid. But her covid elimination and suppression strategies seem ok to me (a non epidemiologist). One big difference between NZ and other western nations right now is that neoliberalism has still been going very strong here, there's very little resistance to it-and people still trust experts. There are no political parties challenging neoliberalism right now, and so the anti-vaxx culture that comes with it is not really a big thing here either.

On October 26 2021 04:35 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2021 01:50 Stroggoz wrote: My problem with Chomsky's position is that he doesn't use statistics to back it up. He needs to explain to me how much of a danger someone is if they are walking around unvaccinated, in a society where 80%+ people are vaccinated. Driving through a red light is going to kill/injure people a lot of the time so i'm not sure if the analogy is really that appropriate. People spent their entire lives not giving a fuck about the people that died of the flu virus but if some small fraction of people die from the coronavirus despite being vaccinated we need to ship the unvaccinated off to camps.

What do you mean, the US has had vaccine mandates since before covid-kid's in school are required to have their vaccines for range of diseases, and their forced isolation is sending them back home if they don't get them, not to camps (lol). Chomsky's position is consistent with the past-whether it's justified or not.

On October 27 2021 06:33 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On October 26 2021 04:35 blackjacki2 wrote:   On October 26 2021 01:50 Stroggoz wrote: My problem with Chomsky's position is that he doesn't use statistics to back it up. He needs to explain to me how much of a danger someone is if they are walking around unvaccinated, in a society where 80%+ people are vaccinated. Driving through a red light is going to kill/injure people a lot of the time so i'm not sure if the analogy is really that appropriate. People spent their entire lives not giving a fuck about the people that died of the flu virus but if some small fraction of people die from the coronavirus despite being vaccinated we need to ship the unvaccinated off to camps. What do you mean, the US has had vaccine mandates since before covid-kid's in school are required to have their vaccines for range of diseases, and their forced isolation is sending them back home if they don't get them, not to camps (lol). Chomsky's position is consistent with the past-whether it's justified or not.

What do you mean what do I mean? 60,000 people died of the flu in 2018, was anyone posting about masks or social distancing or vaccine mandates then? No. Everyone unanimously agreed to shrug their shoulders and go on about their day just like we do every flu season.