covid vaccine - Page 7

I'm not gonna cite a number, cause I don't know and I'm not even sure it's fully mapped out, I'm guessing it even varies depending on type of vaccine and how long ago etc. But how sick / how likely people are to get sick depends on the viral load they are exposed to, and being vaccinated greatly reduces the viral load you spread, even if you are infected.

Anyway, even if you are young and healthy, that does not mean you are immune to Covid. Professional athletes in their 20s and 30s occasionally become very ill from Covid. It's not frequent - not claiming that - but it's still way, way more likely that you get seriously ill from covid than from any vaccine, especially if you live in a country or region with a fairly high prevalence of covid.

So: Assuming you're not a conspiracy theorist who rejects 'mainstream medical science', then getting the vaccine reduces the risk of serious illness both to you, and to people around you. It's that simple. If you are an adult, virtually no matter what age or health condition, getting vaccinated makes sense from a purely selfish point of view, and it makes sense from a more communitarian point of view.

On October 05 2021 22:42 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 05 2021 22:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: When Covid was new, travis was posting on tl about how it was connected to 5g and that covid was going to change the lives of everyone negatively and that in one year, everyone would know someone who had died from covid. (I've actually had a pretty great year and a half and in Norway I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who died.) Now, it's the vaccine that is the problem. What I do get is that you guys stop posting because 'it's too tiring' - cause it must be really exhausting to inhabit your realities. It sounds like you aren't even totally sure what it was I said, so maybe you shouldn't be trying to quote me or paraphase me or whatever? right? seems like common sense and respectful treatment of another person right? Oh, and the point is surely complicated, because the world is chaotic. But there are clear agendas that have been made known, such as the Great Reset... it's not really deniable because they literally tell us, this is fact not opinion or in simpler terms, perhaps the most relevant point for everyday people - the point is authoritarianism. extreme authoritarianism using technology to ensure compliance.

Firstly I don't think you can really expect respect when your previous post states that 'they are all brainwashed due to like some sort of weird mental weakness, or they are retarded lol'.

Secondly I tried to look at your posts on tl where you talk about the relationship between covid, 5g and the economy, but you removed them so it's impossible for me to know what you really said. I can find quotes that make you seem like a huge covid alarmist, but it doesn't really matter. Anyway, I think discussing this with you is just depressing, because I remember you as a caring, smart and empathic person, and it's not the person I see anymore. I assume you might return that statement right back at me, but oh well. I genuinely hope your life becomes better in the future, but I honestly doubt it - and not because you're gonna end up in camps, but because you've distanced yourself from society and accepted a world view that is not compatible with well.. people that are sane.

On October 06 2021 13:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: and being vaccinated greatly reduces the viral load you spread, even if you are infected.

This was true before DELTA but now they find out that vaccinated persons who get covid have the same viral load then not vaccinated. Only they are less days infectous, however i would make the argument that vaccinated persons potentailly spread it much more then unvaccinated as those not vaccinated (at least here) cant really participate in social life.
Here if you want to read: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Also you should be very aware about narcolepsy that was because of the vaccination against swine flu (mainly in scandinavian countries as far as i know).
The thing is they only found out about this around 11-12 month after they started to vaccinate and then stopped it.

I'm not denying that there is a risk also for myself to get Corona and might even need to go to hospital, but statistically it is very unlikely, so i'm happy to take that risk.
Also as long as everyone had an opportunity to get vaccinated i dont see how i should do it for an altruistic reason.


EDIT: also how far should the govt go about protecting their ppl? smoking is not good for health care system but still allowed ? same goes for unhealthy food, alcohol etc. What about limitation of travel becasue of CO2 ? would you support those ideas and comply because it is all for health / health of the earth ?

Speaking from the pov of Norway here - guessing some of these policies exist in various european countries and american states too, but here, I know how the laws are and what the justification is for said laws.

Smoking is regulated in many ways. It's heavily taxed (both to discourage use, and because it places extra burden on the health care system. (I mean, smokers live shorter lives, which is 'good' in that sense, but they tend to require a whole lot of health care in their final 5 years)), and there are other regulations like 'can't smoke inside public buildings because then you expose others to secondhand smoke' etc. Sugar, much the same - I support having a tax on sugary products to discourage too much consumption (and having no tax on healthy food). I also support a tax on Co2 emissions (imo, probably the best or maybe only way to help reduce emissions within a somewhat capitalistic framework.) - this is also supported by Norwegian conservative parties. Anyway, I also don't think smoking/sugar are fair comparisons because they mostly affect you, while not vaccinating makes the virus propagate. People who go like 'well, herd immunity is achieved without me anyway without me contributing' are imo pretty crappy people, even if I can see the selfish rationale - assuming they live in a country where vaccination rates are really high.

More importantly, (again, I work in school), I think it's important that people are educated on what the consequences of an unhealthy diet and smoking constitutes - and I experience that this is actually happening. Smoking has - because of various policies discouraging it - virtually disappeared for younger people. Fewer than 1% of Norwegians aged 16-24 smoke cigarettes daily. 10 years ago, that number was 12%. I think that's a wonderful development, personally. I'm not a fan of making things 'illegal', but policies aimed at curbing unhealthy behavior or encouraging healthy behavior? Hugely supportive of that.

(about the swine flu in spoiler, I think it's a bit less interesting, but it's a fair point, so I'm addressing it.)
+ Show Spoiler +

I agree with almost everything you say to be honest and education is the most important!

Where i disagree with you:

The idea of reaching herd immunity was prominent at the beginning but now many are saying that it will be almost impossible (which is not a problem as long as the vulnerable ones are protected).
I would get vaccinated for an altruistic reason if the vaccination would completely stop the transmission (so herd immunity would be possible), otherwise i dont see any good reason to do it.

and what is happening now with unvaccinated people (excluded from social activites, fired from work etc.) is embarassing.

I got the TDAP yesterday. I'm not anti-vaccine for the record. I'm pro-discernment.


And no, the virus preventing or even mitigating transmission was never shown to be true or false.

I've gone through this many times. I challenge all of you to give me studies that show that the virus mitigates transmission. I've asked for this many times, most of the time people never even try to give one. Pretty amazing since it seems to be the crux of the "everyone should get the vaccine" argument.

So yeah, link a study, please. I've had people link studies that claim the vaccine mitigates transmission. Every single one uses SYMPTOMS as a criteria for infection. The only ones that actually test for covid ONLY TEST SYMPTOMATIC INDIVIDUALS. Please read what I am saying - please find me a study that does otherwise.

If you don't understand what I am saying - every single study I have read equates a lack of symptoms to a lack of transmissibility. They literally just operate under this assumption even though there is no evidence this is the case. And then so my question is: Why aren't any of these studies actually testing all of the participants instead of operating under these assumptions.


FURTHERMORE, the entire point of a vaccine is the production of antibodies. Guess what studies I found that tested for antibodies? NONE OF THEM. Maybe you can have better luck and find one. Here's the FDA's stance on it:

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/s...after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is reminding the public and health care providers that results from currently authorized SARS-CoV-2 antibody tests should not be used to evaluate a person’s level of immunity or protection from COVID-19 at any time, and especially after the person received a COVID-19 vaccination.

WTF?

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On October 05 2021 09:47 Santafairy wrote: nobody picked up on this, it's not a logical thought process because it doesn't consider variance life is not a game and it can be perfectly rational to use a non-GTO strategy lowering variance at the cost of reduced EV has its own benefits and usually I wouldn't Daut you so I'm willing to accept this is sort of understood as being partly considered in "life EV" if that's some kind of meta-EV you can ARGUE either way, maybe for children it's not clear and the risk of the virus and vaccine are too similar, you can argue with adults it's all but proven the side effects are miniscule, but that's my point, variance is a necessary part of the calculus not just EV [QUOTE] Oh yes please... school Daut of all people about statistical math lol. I assume you are equating unknown future side-effects as "variance" (it isn't), but for the 100th time, get the fucking J&J vaccine which uses a nearly century old method with very known effects, unlike COVID which we also have 0 data on long-term effects. [quote] it is de facto forcing if you can't work or eat or go outside without a vaccine 1) is this only for corona? and can you explain why? 2) what happened to right to privacy and can you explain why we're trashing that here 3) can you explain how you can put on a vaccine and take it off again like shoes or a shirt, or is that just masks oh oops and leading up my main entire idea is there are people who are ACTUALLY medically recommended (by their doctors) to avoid the vaccine because of allergies, or underlying conditions, and the retarded bans and mandates (from gov't or elsewhere) are going to trample these people's perfectly reasonable rights, just like getting your name on the no-fly-list unjustly in the past 20 years It's forcing if the state mandates it, if a business chooses it its not, nobody is forcing you to wear format attire becaue a fancy restaurant has it as a rule, don't want to dress up? don't go to the restaurant.

if the government, for example in new york if you have access to any news at all, mandates that restaurants check vaxxes to let you eat, the government vicariously through the business is forcing you to get a vax if you want to eat at a restaurant

i know your whole thing is anarchy but things other than the government can force people to do things. if someone tells your wife, suck my dick, or i will shoot you, you don't say, wait a minute, it's only forcing if it's federally mandated fellatio, she could always choose to get shot instead

so in addition to forcing i feel like you don't know what de facto means either. if every employer in the country mandated vaccination (by government order for example) you would have to get it in order to have a livelihood. "nobody is forcing you to work there," yes, but if you can't work you lose everything and die even though a guy didn't kidnap you and literally inject you against your will

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: 1) No other virus has killed millions this year, if other deadly viruses were on a pandemic killing millions it probably would extend to those too.

okay you at last are kind of hitting on the internals of an issue the erudite Spitfiree was not quite Socratic enough to stumble upon

in US has killed 6-700k right?
2017 flu killed 60k+
1918 flu killed tens of millions which could happen again at any point, flu seasons are regularly forecast to be more or less severe. why are severe ones not accompanied by vaccination mandates/coercive suggestions at the level of corona?
some states mandate meningitis vaccines for kids, only 500 people die of that every year, hmm seems fewer than 60k
so obviously it's not the principle of infectious disease, it's the magnitude. (rate *of corona dead* in US is extra large due to obesity/comorbidities)
my question is how many thousands of people have to be affected by an infectious disease before we surrender rights to a government that will obviously only demand further compliance?
why is bareback sex not illegal except for childbearing couples? could eradicate HIV and that's just a piece of plastic, not like a vaccine
why THIS one? why NOW? public health? control, and political convenience

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: 2) Businesses ask for IDs to check age before selling alcohol, no different than ask for vaccination status if you want to keep your age or your vaccination status private go somewhere else.

in elementary school they taught us about economics and said there are "needs" and "wants"
a "want" is something that you want, which would be considered a luxury
a "need" is something you need, like a job or education or food or medical care (item - colorado hospital says almost no transplants for the unvaxxed)

your age is different than your personal medical history, cursory knowledge of law can explain this.
there is very little precedent in the US (only relevant country) for something like this. i believe the only thing is kids need certain basic inoculations to enter public school, ones that give actual immunity to eradicated diseases and don't have the faintest side effects IN THAT POPULATION with decades of observation

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: 3) what?

lot of retards who aren't Daut trying to answer me. i don't know if they have this is mexico but there is a slogan NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. you can see it on signs at businesses. my response is to ask whether something you can put on or take off ad libitum (a shirt) is analogous to a medical treatment you permanently inject into your body, or if there is some perhaps characteristic of a vaccine that makes it different than a pair of shoes

how can you not get that?

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: If somebody has a medical excemption to get the vaccine then sure show me the Doctors order and I'll accept you in my imaginary business.

don't you run an actual factory dumbass?

this is very relevant to the government shifting responsibility and blame to you to enforce its own vaccine policy. imagine you'll get hit with a fine if you let an unvaccinated person eat in your restaurant, or fail to verify they're vaccinated (this is true, now, in some jurisdictions). imagine you'll get hit with a fine if your workers aren't vaccinated. imagine one of them has a medical reason. i'm sure that gov't bureaucracy will be more than understanding not to fine you $50k while handing out corona relief loans and grants to your 9 figure super liquid competitor. (liquid means capital, not the TL network)

people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power

income tax
the patriot act
etc

there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be).

edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future.

On October 06 2021 19:37 CrownRoyal wrote: people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power income tax the patriot act etc there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be). edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future.

I think everyone in this thread is against vaccine mandates? There's 2 different questions here 1) Should you get the vaccine and 2) should the government force/coerce you into getting the vaccine. The answer to question 1 is obviously yes unless you're one of those people gullible enough to think the vaccine has microchips or control serum or whatever other bullshit you want to believe. The answer to question 2 is a no for I think everyone in this thread.

On October 06 2021 21:32 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2021 19:37 CrownRoyal wrote: people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power income tax the patriot act etc there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be). edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future. I think everyone in this thread is against vaccine mandates? There's 2 different questions here 1) Should you get the vaccine and 2) should the government force/coerce you into getting the vaccine. The answer to question 1 is obviously yes unless you're one of those people gullible enough to think the vaccine has microchips or control serum or whatever other bullshit you want to believe. The answer to question 2 is a no for I think everyone in this thread.

nope

On October 06 2021 21:39 lostaccount wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2021 21:32 blackjacki2 wrote:   On October 06 2021 19:37 CrownRoyal wrote: people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power income tax the patriot act etc there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be). edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future. I think everyone in this thread is against vaccine mandates? There's 2 different questions here 1) Should you get the vaccine and 2) should the government force/coerce you into getting the vaccine. The answer to question 1 is obviously yes unless you're one of those people gullible enough to think the vaccine has microchips or control serum or whatever other bullshit you want to believe. The answer to question 2 is a no for I think everyone in this thread. nope

You have to finish the sentence to see I already made an exception for you

On October 06 2021 21:48 blackjacki2 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2021 21:39 lostaccount wrote:   On October 06 2021 21:32 blackjacki2 wrote:   On October 06 2021 19:37 CrownRoyal wrote: people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power income tax the patriot act etc there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be). edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future. I think everyone in this thread is against vaccine mandates? There's 2 different questions here 1) Should you get the vaccine and 2) should the government force/coerce you into getting the vaccine. The answer to question 1 is obviously yes unless you're one of those people gullible enough to think the vaccine has microchips or control serum or whatever other bullshit you want to believe. The answer to question 2 is a no for I think everyone in this thread. nope You have to finish the sentence to see I already made an exception for you

u sure ur not the gullible one.

On October 06 2021 12:48 sChOuA wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2021 10:58 Spitfiree wrote:   On October 06 2021 08:23 CrownRoyal wrote: There seem to be a lot of experts in the chat, I have one question which is the only reason I haven't been vaccinated. What is the point of getting it if you are healthy, not at risk, and it doesn't stop you from spreading the virus? Genuine question, not trolling just looking for education. Because it significantly reduces the chance of spreading it by over 90%? can you reference some study to this ? personally i think 90% is way too high.

Hm, I thought Pfeizer had data proving that but I'm mistaken, there's no official data of what % it is so any number is speculation actually.

On October 06 2021 19:37 CrownRoyal wrote: people have forgotten all of the times we gave the government power in times of crisis and they never relinquished that power income tax the patriot act etc there are plenty of reasons you should not be supporting mandating the vaccine even if it is the right thing in this situation (and it very well could be). edit - just in regards to americans, my government is not nearly as transparent and much more evil in general than some of the people who live in places where mandates wont be somehow abused in the future.

The whole point is that you SHOULD vaccinate yourself without anyone fucking forcing you to. Nobody here advocates for forceful actions by any government. Also lol at putting the income tax in that bracket

Not sure if people on average used to really be this stupid before the internet and it was just not known, or we became dumber as species in the past 3 decades, but we surely live in the times of highest amounts of antivaxxers

On October 06 2021 08:23 CrownRoyal wrote: There seem to be a lot of experts in the chat, I have one question which is the only reason I haven't been vaccinated. What is the point of getting it if you are healthy, not at risk, and it doesn't stop you from spreading the virus? Genuine question, not trolling just looking for education.

Reduces the odds of getting it
Reduces the odds of spreading it
Reduces the odds of developing symptoms
Reduces the odds of severe sickness
Reduces the odds of death.

On October 06 2021 13:40 Liquid`Drone wrote: Secondly I tried to look at your posts on tl where you talk about the relationship between covid, 5g and the economy, but you removed them so it's impossible for me to know what you really said. I can find quotes that make you seem like a huge covid alarmist, but it doesn't really matter. Anyway, I think discussing this with you is just depressing, because I remember you as a caring, smart and empathic person, and it's not the person I see anymore. I assume you might return that statement right back at me, but oh well. I genuinely hope your life becomes better in the future, but I honestly doubt it - and not because you're gonna end up in camps, but because you've distanced yourself from society and accepted a world view that is not compatible with well.. people that are sane.

It's not the first time I've seen Travis say some retarded shit.

On October 06 2021 07:17 vasoline73 wrote: I was initially depressed by this. Now I accept that the society I took for granted is gone. Even if I get vaccinated (which I may do someday) and others like me vaccinate, there will never be 100% compliance. So there will never be a "reopening" or a return "to normal." There will always be some other thing we have to comply to first. Like a carrot dangled in front of us. People will be scanning their vaccine passports for the rest of eternity in places that implement them. I had no problem wearing masks, or respecting social distancing rules, or being empathetic to people's fear of the virus. Now though? People who are concerned about covid are vaccinated. That should have been the end of it. Of course, there will be no end to this anytime soon. Moving goalposts.

Have you been to my home state of Florida? They have been 100% open for many many months. The governor has been attempting to block any and all mandates and lockdowns, even filing lawsuits against the federal government for the mandates it is trying to oppose.

https://youtu.be/wuAbLIexkAw?t=180

"We can either have a free society or we can have a bio-medical security state. I can tell you, Florida, we're a free state."

The thing is, even though he opposes vaccine mandates he still recommends you get vaccinated because the science is quite clear the vaccines are super helpful. He can only have these policies as long as people are not dying on the sidewalks outside of hospitals and hospitals are running out of oxygen because if that starts to happen the tide of public opinion will turn against him. I have many friends that work in hospitals across Florida and every one of them say the delta wave that they just went through almost did them in. The hospitals were filled to the brim and they were filled to the brim with COVID patients that were unvaccinated. So to me it's common sense that if you support the policies of this governor you should get vaccinated to do a small part in minimizing the impact of COVID.

On October 06 2021 19:00 Santafairy wrote: if the government, for example in new york if you have access to any news at all, mandates that restaurants check vaxxes to let you eat, the government vicariously through the business is forcing you to get a vax if you want to eat at a restaurant

Yes that is the government mandating vaccines, I'm against that.

i know your whole thing is anarchy but things other than the government can force people to do things. if someone tells your wife, suck my dick, or i will shoot you, you don't say, wait a minute, it's only forcing if it's federally mandated fellatio, she could always choose to get shot instead

lol you are bad at analogies, a restaurant by their own volition refusing service isn't the same as raping somebody at gunpoint lol.

If a restaurant puts a rule that in order to eat in there you have to suck the owners dick, I'm fine with it, don't want to suck it? then dont eat there, easy.

so in addition to forcing i feel like you don't know what de facto means either. if every employer in the country mandated vaccination (by government order for example) you would have to get it in order to have a livelihood. "nobody is forcing you to work there," yes, but if you can't work you lose everything and die even though a guy didn't kidnap you and literally inject you against your will

"By government order" again... against it.

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: okay you at last are kind of hitting on the internals of an issue the erudite Spitfiree was not quite Socratic enough to stumble upon in US has killed 6-700k right? 2017 flu killed 60k+ 1918 flu killed tens of millions which could happen again at any point, flu seasons are regularly forecast to be more or less severe. why are severe ones not accompanied by vaccination mandates/coercive suggestions at the level of corona? some states mandate meningitis vaccines for kids, only 500 people die of that every year, hmm seems fewer than 60k so obviously it's not the principle of infectious disease, it's the magnitude. (rate *of corona dead* in US is extra large due to obesity/comorbidities) my question is how many thousands of people have to be affected by an infectious disease before we surrender rights to a government that will obviously only demand further compliance? why is bareback sex not illegal except for childbearing couples? could eradicate HIV and that's just a piece of plastic, not like a vaccine why THIS one? why NOW? public health? control, and political convenience

-700k reported deaths, however the more precise metric would be excess deaths compared to past years, in most countries is about 2 to 3x the reported Covid deaths, so I'd save 2M give or take.
-Yes the spanish flu killed more people, in great part due to 100 years of medical advancement, so?
-The flu is caued by over a dozen diferente viruses, due to the high mutability of some of these, it lasts ony a year, the meningitis shot is only is required once and is more effective.
-I dont think you should surrender any right to the government, I've said that MANY times now.
-Most HIV infections are through needles fwiw, but yeah lets ban non-reproductive sex, brilliant policies rofl.
-Because Covid is the more dangerous virus we've seen in the last 100 years (dangerous does not equal lethal, fwiw, Ebola is way lethal but less dangerous), but I think many if not most of the government responses have been retarded... also not getting vaccinated is retarded.

On October 06 2021 00:30 Baalim wrote: in elementary school they taught us about economics and said there are "needs" and "wants" a "want" is something that you want, which would be considered a luxury a "need" is something you need, like a job or education or food or medical care (item - colorado hospital says almost no transplants for the unvaxxed) your age is different than your personal medical history, cursory knowledge of law can explain this. there is very little precedent in the US (only relevant country) for something like this. i believe the only thing is kids need certain basic inoculations to enter public school, ones that give actual immunity to eradicated diseases and don't have the faintest side effects IN THAT POPULATION with decades of observation

You dont need to eat on a specific restaurant, go to one where they accept unvaccinated people.

lot of retards who aren't Daut trying to answer me. i don't know if they have this is mexico but there is a slogan NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. you can see it on signs at businesses. my response is to ask whether something you can put on or take off ad libitum (a shirt) is analogous to a medical treatment you permanently inject into your body, or if there is some perhaps characteristic of a vaccine that makes it different than a pair of shoes how can you not get that? [quote/] It's not about if you can take something on/off, a restaurant should be able to deny service if you have tattoos or refuse entry to kids etc, it doesn't mean that I agree with whatever policy they make, but I agree that they should be able to set the rules of their own property. [QUOTE] don't you run an actual factory dumbass? this is very relevant to the government shifting responsibility and blame to you to enforce its own vaccine policy. imagine you'll get hit with a fine if you let an unvaccinated person eat in your restaurant, or fail to verify they're vaccinated (this is true, now, in some jurisdictions). imagine you'll get hit with a fine if your workers aren't vaccinated. imagine one of them has a medical reason. i'm sure that gov't bureaucracy will be more than understanding not to fine you $50k while handing out corona relief loans and grants to your 9 figure super liquid competitor. (liquid means capital, not the TL network)

I might have overstated, my dad owns one and given his illness I was more involved than usual running it, in fact of all the workers only 1 isn't vaccinated I've suggested giving her an ultimatum given my dad's condition and high-risk to Covid.

For the 100x time, I don't support government mandates.

Pretty wild that nobody in here supports the mandate, I kinda expected Eri or Daut to do.


I wonder if our resident "anarchist" does lol.

I already said that I don't, if you're referring to me. The only cases I'd support forced vaccine is in situations where the parents are incapable of taking care of children, and only for virus's that have a high chance of harming children, so not for corona but for something like polio (if it was still around), I would.

On October 06 2021 14:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: Speaking from the pov of Norway here - guessing some of these policies exist in various european countries and american states too, but here, I know how the laws are and what the justification is for said laws. Smoking is regulated in many ways. It's heavily taxed (both to discourage use, and because it places extra burden on the health care system. (I mean, smokers live shorter lives, which is 'good' in that sense, but they tend to require a whole lot of health care in their final 5 years)), and there are other regulations like 'can't smoke inside public buildings because then you expose others to secondhand smoke' etc. Sugar, much the same - I support having a tax on sugary products to discourage too much consumption (and having no tax on healthy food). I also support a tax on Co2 emissions (imo, probably the best or maybe only way to help reduce emissions within a somewhat capitalistic framework.) - this is also supported by Norwegian conservative parties. Anyway, I also don't think smoking/sugar are fair comparisons because they mostly affect you, while not vaccinating makes the virus propagate. People who go like 'well, herd immunity is achieved without me anyway without me contributing' are imo pretty crappy people, even if I can see the selfish rationale - assuming they live in a country where vaccination rates are really high. More importantly, (again, I work in school), I think it's important that people are educated on what the consequences of an unhealthy diet and smoking constitutes - and I experience that this is actually happening. Smoking has - because of various policies discouraging it - virtually disappeared for younger people. Fewer than 1% of Norwegians aged 16-24 smoke cigarettes daily. 10 years ago, that number was 12%. I think that's a wonderful development, personally. I'm not a fan of making things 'illegal', but policies aimed at curbing unhealthy behavior or encouraging healthy behavior? Hugely supportive of that. (about the swine flu in spoiler, I think it's a bit less interesting, but it's a fair point, so I'm addressing it.) + Show Spoiler + The swine flu vaccine is probably the only vaccine I can think of where you might well argue that the negatives outweighed the positives. Narcolepsy is a serious illness. In Norway, between 2009 and 2012, there were 72 cases of narcolepsy in people aged 5 to 26, They also see that the prevalence of narcolepsy was about 5 times higher for vaccinated individuals than for unvaccinated individuals. For that age group as a whole, there were about 1.4 cases per 100000 inhabitants - so 5 times higher translates to something like 3 cases per 100000 inhabitants as opposed to 0.6 cases per 100000 inhabitants. At the same time, the vaccine was pretty successful in stopping infection of swine flu, and getting the swine flu was still much worse than getting the vaccine, even with the increased chance of developing narcolepsy. Part of why the vaccine was a failure, was that the swine flu was less contagious than expected, so only 3% of the unvaccinated ended up getting it anyway. (Current numbers for the US are more than 13% have gotten Covid) Among the individuals who got swine flu however, they were: about 5 times more likely to develop Guillain-Barre syndrome than people who didn't (being vaccinated reduced the chance of getting flu, but showed no increase in that syndrome), doubled the chance of chronic fatigue syndrome (no increase from vaccine), doubled the chance of stillbirth among pregnant women The same person who has been the main spokesperson of Covid in Norway, the head doctor of our people's health institute, has described the swine flu vaccine in negative terms, and stated that it was a rushed mistake. He's been a very somber voice regarding Covid, not being particularly alarmist. He has however, strongly encouraged people to get the covid vaccine. I strongly respect and trust that guy, and there seems to be very strong consensus among all medical professionals I see. Source: https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2017/narcolepsy-after-swineinfluenza/ (again - I've been stating many times that Norway is a highly transparent society. When the institute of public health made a mistake (which they largely regard the swine flu vaccination as), they admit to it, and publish data from studies underlining why it was a mistake. The lack of dissenting voices regarding whether adults should take the covid vaccine (among serious medical professionals, not youtube quacks) makes it abundantly clear to me that it is sound advice.)

Not sure about Norway but in NZ most of the way things like drink driving and smoking has been discouraged has been through propaganda, and not education. It's been largely through 30-second adverts that are designed to psychologically pressure people into not driving or smoking. I get that not everyone has the time to be educated on these detrimental things but the way it was done is unnattractive to me.