Bottom set, Deep 200nl

Villain is a reg that runs about 15/10 (Can't recall his exact stats). I have never seen him get out of line.

Submitted by : Babs

PokerStars Game #11106894452: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/07/24 - 08:13:40 (ET)
Table 'Persephone II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: FrameLayer ($81.70 in chips)
Seat 2: Turtle-13fd ($27.35 in chips)
Seat 3: asikking ($190.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Pandochat ($221 in chips)
Seat 5: MARC 753 ($205 in chips)
Seat 6: futilewar ($200 in chips)
Seat 7: ronnelcarlo ($198 in chips)
Seat 8: Sandviper23 ($384.60 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero ($598.60 in chips)
FrameLayer: posts small blind $1
Turtle-13fd: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
asikking: folds
Pandochat: folds
MARC 753: calls $2
futilewar: calls $2
ronnelcarlo: folds
Sandviper23: calls $2
Hero : calls $2
FrameLayer: calls $1
Turtle-13fd: checks

Flop (Pot : $12.00)

   
FrameLayer: checks
Turtle-13fd: checks
MARC 753: checks
futilewar: checks
Sandviper23: bets $12
Hero : raises $18 to $30
FrameLayer: folds
Turtle-13fd: folds
MARC 753: folds
futilewar: folds
Sandviper23: raises $50 to $80
Hero : calls $50

Turn (Pot : $172.00)

   
Sandviper23: bets $150
Hero : ?

First of all, raise PF.
Secondly, either fold to his 4bet or shove. This board is so draw heavy and you let him see the turn so cheaply. What's more, if you call the flop do you expect the villian not to bet the turn? He will always do it. And what card would you like to see on the turn to ez call here? 7? Your call on the flop means that you thought your set might be good. What did that 5 change?
As for me, I fold the flop. You're either against JT, TT, 89 or a combo draw. W/ all of these hand your opponent calls a flop shove. That means your shove is -EV.
Calling is even worse.
Fold > Shove > Call.

As for the turn, it's an easy call after you called the 4bet on the flop.

dude hero has 77 :S
villain cant have 77. 777 beats JT and it beats a combo draw too, JJ and 1010 are unlikely since everyone limped(a 15/10 would raise these i think).. so shoooooooooooooooooooooovvvveeeeeeeeeeee.

btw i think calling pf is fine.

I am 90% sure this dude raises TT-JJ pf, therefore I put him on 89 or JT (haven't seen him 3bet combo draws). So I called flop hoping to shove any repeater, it didn't come and hence am in a conundrum

i dont know what a conundrum is but i think you should shove. i think you look really good against his range (bluffs, semibluffs with good draws and combodraws and made two pairs and sets)

raise to 13$ preflop

Yep if he has any raising stats at all he probably would've raised TT-JJ, o if you can take away those hands i would say push the flop where you have some FE vs JT/flushdraw and are 35% vs 89 (which is the hand i would say he have like 75% of the time or something). If you just call you are pretty much comitting yourself to a call vs 89 on the turn eitherway and you give flushdraws etc a free card.

Now when you just called the flop i would fold turn, you are a big dog vs 89.

Folding turn is NEVER an option here. Why would you call the flop and then fold to a meaningless turn card? Never ever ever ever fold turn here.

wow make it 14$ preflop ... so many limpers and u have such a good hand. You dont want a multiway pot, you want a headsup pot.. jesus NEVER call there on the BT with ANYTHING.

If you wanna play a hand even if its 27o raise it.

as played this is a standard cooler.

screams of 89, but yeah, a shove is standard here

kapol, your advice is screwy, a) look at the stack sizes and b) if he calls with JT, combo draws, and 89, his push is +ev

i strongly suggest lurking more and posting inane bullshit less

nvm

Against a range of 77,JTs,98s you have about 50% equity. I think that's a good summary of his range (obv there are more you can add but it evens out) so I think you have to go broke now , also the turn call probably commits you.

I'm interested in higher stakes players as to flop play.

argggh full ring, hurts my eyes!

is it not good to raise this preflop? anyways, on this drawy of a board w/ basically no higher set possible get it in and be happy about it.

sandviper is such a fag hes so bad, on 6max

fullring is so gay, but EXTREME rock stars such as [vital]Myth are such heroes in it

button is your world man...raise preflop for sure. also, make it like 18. the more limpers in the pot, the more you need to discourage multiway action.

in this spot, here's my raising range:

{62s+, A2s+, K2s+, KJo+, ATo+, 22+}

so ANY suited 3gapper, 2gap, 1gap, or connector, any pair, any suited ace or king, and some offsuit aces and kings.

and at 1/2 fullring, this is probably too tight.

higher sets aren't possible here, but remember that in a limped pot, JT is gonna be scared of 77 and 98, 98 is beating you and you'd rather either lose a small pot or outdraw then get it in, and no other hand is willing to play for stacks. sandviper is never EVER getting out of line here with a combo draw in fullring, EVER.

so since you know he has JT or 98 when he's willing to play a big pot, you should honestly just flat his flop bet, encourage some action from the fish behind you, look to boat up, and stack some fish or stack sandviper's 98. if the board does pair and he wakes up with JT, it's a cooler and getting your stack in is fine imo.

but yeah, sandviper is a nit although competent, and the rest of the limpers are total fish. encourage the fish to play by just calling. really important concept for value extraction in full ring.

actually, marc 753 is an ok player who responds to game flow decently and can get really aggro when necessary. i've seen him do some really shitty things though, but seldomly

also, this bet size doesn't want you to fold. this is a belligerent expression with his near pot-sized bet on the turn, saying "i want to commit you to a river shove since we're this deep"

in fact, i don't even think JT 3bets the flop. he has 98 or a misclicked JJ/TT every single time.

JT can't 3bet the flop because wtf does he ever expect to get value from when he 3bets? you aren't check/raising a draw here, you're obviously check/calling and hoping other people inflate your pot odds by overcalling. your range is so unbelievably narrow to check/raise here that he is going to want to fold JT, tbh.

I like to flat flop too to buid the pot. Multiway is very str8forward, so you know when youre beat. And I think JJ and TT can be in his range becouse they are fullring nits. I mean, that 10% pf raise could represent stealing blinds and premiums or only openraising

flop is a fold - even I fold here, which means a lot

first there was double posting, then there was posting 7 times in a row

On July 24 2007 14:06 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: first there was double posting, then there was 1 post for every 10k of the $70k

when i own a thread, i don't fuck around.

this player can never have a combo draw here? full ring is sick

On July 24 2007 15:22 RiKD wrote: this player can never have a combo draw here? full ring is full of nits

wow so terrible advice, going broke here in a limped pot is TERRIBLE this guy alwayshave 89, no exeptions if you plan to continue only do so for boat up odds wich he isnt giving on the turn.

Baal is correct - this is a flop fold IMO - FR players are so nitty I don't even think they 3-bet flop with top 2

Thanks for the advice fellas, esp Myth. I obviously misplayed this pf.

Nevertheless, I used all my timebank on the flop and thus made a hasty decision on the turn, and shoved.

He had 89, river blanked.


P.S. MARC 753 is a nit I have him at like 8/4

i totally agree with tom/myth/baal.

there's no way he has anything other than 89 in my mind.

If you going to call $80 you might as well shove the flop, if your going to call that much in an unraised pot, do you really have to think on the turn unless a major scare card comes, like a card that completes the flush or something, but is doesn't matter, its just such a draw heavy board. You need to think bro, don't just call a bet, you need to understand, by calling your going to have around %40 of your chips in there, so you might as well go all in, so if u think your set is good you have to shove, calling is bad here because there's so many draws.

mehhhh i personally think limping 77 is ok (?)
i fold flop tho.

then again i don't know 1/2 so my advice is probably worthless

On July 24 2007 06:40 Kapol wrote: Folding turn is NEVER an option here. Why would you call the flop and then fold to a meaningless turn card? Never ever ever ever fold turn here.

because 89 makes a straight and youre in position............?

calling flop is debatable, folding turn is easily an option

How does your advice change if this is a 6-max table and the same amount of people have limped before, and hand plays to the flop as played in the original hand? Still fold to 3bet on the flop?

On July 25 2007 08:46 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On July 24 2007 06:40 Kapol wrote: Folding turn is NEVER an option here. Why would you call the flop and then fold to a meaningless turn card? Never ever ever ever fold turn here. because 89 makes a straight and youre in position............? calling flop is debatable, folding turn is easily an option

I don't understand - the 5 is a blank. So why is it still okay to call the flop 3bet then fold to a turn bet?

On July 25 2007 08:33 n0rthf4ce wrote: mehhhh i personally think limping 77 is ok (?) i fold flop tho.

i also agree w/ the limp its fine from time to time

On July 25 2007 10:56 bigbb33 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 25 2007 08:46 Nazgul wrote:   On July 24 2007 06:40 Kapol wrote: Folding turn is NEVER an option here. Why would you call the flop and then fold to a meaningless turn card? Never ever ever ever fold turn here. because 89 makes a straight and youre in position............? calling flop is debatable, folding turn is easily an option I don't understand - the 5 is a blank. So why is it still okay to call the flop 3bet then fold to a turn bet?

it's ok when your opponent 3bets the flop slightly too often, but when he gets called he always gives up with bluffs and other hands you beat.

what nazgul means is that sometimes the flop 3bet isn't enough info to force a fold with a set, but the flop 3bet followed up by a stiff turn bet sometimes is.

there are certainly cases when a flop 3bet and a turn bet still isn't enough to make you fold a set, as well as cases when the flop 3bet on its own is more than enough.

Agreed, I think its ok to call this flop sometimes, because you do indeed have the 7 outs on the flop.

uhh one of those easy spots to fold a set in.

i think limp pre is bad standaerdz BUT I DOnT PLAY 1/2 FR LOL

Here is the rest of the hand.

Sandviper23: bets $150
Babs1337: raises $302 to $452
Sandviper23: calls $152.60 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [7s Jc Ts 5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sandviper23: shows [8d 9s] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
Babs1337: mucks hand
Sandviper23 collected $774.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $777.20 | Rake $3
Board [7s Jc Ts 5h 4h]
Seat 1: FrameLayer (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Turtle-13fd (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: asikking folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pandochat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: MARC 753 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: futilewar folded on the Flop
Seat 7: ronnelcarlo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Sandviper23 showed [8d 9s] and won ($774.20) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 9: Babs1337 (button) mucked [7d 7c]


Tough spot deep stack.

On July 24 2007 12:04 [vital]Myth wrote: encourage the fish to play by just calling. really important concept for value extraction in full ring.

what in the world? on this board?

Ive said it before, I'll say it again... Myth is a rockstar

Uhm.. I don't see what's so bad about limping 77 here with many limpers already in. Sets are the nuts almost always so who cares if many people are in?

fullring is disgusting

limpin a 77 esp with fish earlier is great imo, you can get much more is a fish gets an Ace or 2 pair on board and you flop your set.

Also if you raise and theres fish you WILL get a call from Ax or Kx a lot of the times, not including the times that someone limped AA AK or KK from EP.

If you dont flop a set and you got called from Ax and theres a Ace... cont bets will cost you dearly.

Also 77 is a medium PP, you can always stack someone that flops a lower set.

Usually 88-99 are raised

Of course this advice is for a fishy table

kinda wanted Myth or someone better to say how bad/good my thinking is or something, any feedback? because this is a very fundamental concept and I would like to be very clear and sure about it.