MMAth to the MAX. - Page 2

So many figthers have different body types and just because some could possibly make a weight doesn't meant they should.

Trigg
Lawler
Mayhem are all examples of guys who were at 170 but they are better suited for 185. Yes cutting is important to make your weight but size isn't everything and sometimes cutting too much is bad. Riggs cutting like 25 lbs of water to make 170 is a big example.

Thiago alves is like 5'9" and he's a powerhouse but BJ penn is 5'9" why can't thiago just make 155 and really crush everyone? I mean he's got all this muscle he should just reduce his mass right and he'll be godly? yeah i know it makes no sense to me but that's sometimes the logic people use.

wandy at 185 are you kidding me? Just cuz his height could possibly allow for such a thing doesn't mean he should. I mean freaking Lesnar is 6'3" he could probably make 205 by cutting muscle right? I mean Fedor is about 230 or so and he's 6' he's enormous for that height. I mean to give you another example. Rich is 6'1" and Forrest is 6'3" Rich is a 185 and Forrest is a 205. they are totally the same size types and are huge for their 185/205 divisions. 2" is about 20 lbs...

so you got gonzaga who's like 6'1" and 242 but people are like "omfg this guy is freakishly enormous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" look at his pic on ufc.com.. he's 1" and 10lbs more then fedor and he is not like some ripped maniac over fedor.. yet no one is gonna say he can make 205 and yet fedor can easily make it all of a sudden?

listen i'm not gonna argue who can make weight and who can't but i will argue people think that fedor can easily make 205 and he's the same dominant fighter. It's just not so.

On October 28 2008 14:43 Suicide wrote: I disagree, I think his BJJ is good enough to allow him to either Stall the action and stand, or sweep and get up. I also think Machida will be top 10 p4p soon if they ever feel like giving him a title shot.

you disagree with what? his bjj is ok yes.

silva cannot take his opponent down, nor is his takedown defense very good. opposed to GSP who is the best wrestler in MMA, has good standup and a good groundgame.

and fedor making 205 yes i do think it would be easy. we talked about this before but I think that fedor only has to lose a FEW POUNDS before he can make the rest of the cut from water. there is no reason to assume that this somehow would be harder for him just because hes fedor and has a belly. the cut he would have to make is a lot easier than that of most 205 guys. all he needs to do is lose a few pounds and sit in the sauna. in todays mma game everyone has to cut as much as they can.

besides I think your examples of miller/trigg/lawler are pretty bad. miller fought 170 because that was the only opportunity the UFC offered him. this was not a choice and its not the right weight for him. he is 6'1 when guys like kos and thiago are 5'10. that's just a ridiculous cut.

trigg has had most success at 170. this is the division where he got title shots and fought hughesx2, gsp, hallman and verissimo. when trigg started to focus on commentating and teaching he fought more at 185.

lawler was 19 or so when he fought at 170 i think.

my examples are more that just because people can make a weight doesn't mean it's going to be a productive weight.

your examples are guys who were succesful at the lower weight class or guys who were enormous

fedor is in no way enormous for 205, most of the 205ers tower over fedor

On October 28 2008 04:09 Daut wrote: also as for victories over top 10s, fedor beat coleman when he was one of the best, arona when he was a heavyweight (although i think arona actually should have won this fight but lost the decision), heath herring when he was top 5 hw, randleman when he was top 10 for sure, and some others like sammy schilt who was a k1 legend. counting lindland who is 2 weight classes below is silly

coleman: 2 year layoff, just beat don the predator frye. way over the hill.
arona: unranked yes, close fight i agree the decision was razor thin so much controversy over this fight i wouldnt really call bragging rights on it
herring: good win, top 10
randleman: absofuckinglutely not a special win. you could argue randleman was top 10 because of his win over mirko, i guess if you look at it objectively that earns you a spot in the top 10 back then. but it was a fluke and randleman is not even close to a top 10 caliber fighter. never was never will be. he lost the 7 fights surrounding the mirko win. going 1-7 in 8 fights.
schilt: he wasnt a K1 legend at this point. he was a kickboxer in MMA with near zero K1 results. his championships came after this fight and after he left MMA. good win schilt was highly regarded at that point, probably top 10

On October 28 2008 16:09 Nazgul wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2008 14:43 Suicide wrote: I disagree, I think his BJJ is good enough to allow him to either Stall the action and stand, or sweep and get up. I also think Machida will be top 10 p4p soon if they ever feel like giving him a title shot. you disagree with what? his bjj is ok yes. silva cannot take his opponent down, nor is his takedown defense very good. opposed to GSP who is the best wrestler in MMA, has good standup and a good groundgame.

Silva can take his opponent down, but he doesn't have to cause he hasn't fought anyone that is better than him standing, thus getting the fight to the ground is not necessary. And i'm pretty sure his bjj is better than just ok, he even said that he trains with a gi cause there's so few that can compete with him no-gi

ya i mean youre right, wins over coleman and randleman were totally expected, was just listing them as top 10 fighters in their weight class so saying they are to be highly regarded is a lage overestatement. herring was a great win, as was schilt.

i guess randleman was kinda shitty though, his win over mirko was avenged by a sub, lol at getting subbed by mirko

Silva can take his opponent down, but he doesn't have to cause he hasn't fought anyone that is better than him standing, thus getting the fight to the ground is not necessary. And i'm pretty sure his bjj is better than just ok, he even said that he trains with a gi cause there's so few that can compete with him no-gi

no he cant what makes you say he can. every fight he has been in vs guys with a takedown he has ended on the bottom. thats fact not fiction. i cant think of a single fight where he took someone down with an effective takedown. it is pretty obvious his takedowns and tkdd are by far the weakest aspects of his game.

silva trains with nog btw, im sure nog would be happy to hear he cant hang with him without a gi. guys that are good or great on the ground have proven they are in either: adcc, bjj world championships, mma, etc. silva has not proven that hes world top at all. his credentials make him ok on the ground and he hasnt shown anything to think otherwise. this is by no means bad at all but lets not pretend his bjj makes him the second coming of jesus christ.

not just that but his bjj has not been transitioned nearly as well as many other fighters for mma. his top position game isnt nearly as strong as most people (wow he can get an RNC from someones back), and his bottom seems to only consist of elbows, triangles and body triangles. his sweeps, armbars, kimuras, and keeping good top position guys in full guard are not on the same level as top mma-bjj fighters.

his takedowns and takedown d are garbage. the reason anderson is considered one of the best is because he finishes almost every fight he has and has good enough ground to not lose the fight. however, i could definitely see someone taking him down a few times, winning 3 or 4 rounds from top position and taking a decision away from him moreso than gsp or bj or fedor losing in their own division. thats probably what naz is getting at the most. if hendo kept up what he was doing a few more rounds he could have won. if okami can keep gnp'ing anderson he can win, and im sure there are a few others who can do the same.

gsp is head and shoulders over everyone at 170 and seems much more invincible.

On October 28 2008 17:37 Nazgul wrote: [QUOTE] silva trains with nog btw, im sure nog would be happy to hear he cant hang with him without a gi. guys that are good or great on the ground have proven they are in either: adcc, bjj world championships, mma, etc. silva has not proven that hes world top at all. his credentials make him ok on the ground and he hasnt shown anything to think otherwise. this is by no means bad at all but lets not pretend his bjj makes him the second coming of jesus christ.

you may be right about the takedowns, but im not making this up, he said that there are like 5 guys that can compete with him no-gi, I assume that he's only talking about the guys from his gym, not around the world, and big-nog is most likely one of those five guys.

5 guys who can handle a bjj black in one team is a lot..

not every team has 20 bjj bbs

well i guess if fedor could make 205 easily he basically shuts down any idea that he isn't the p4p best fighter in the universe.

On October 28 2008 17:31 Daut wrote: ya i mean youre right, wins over coleman and randleman were totally expected, was just listing them as top 10 fighters in their weight class so saying they are to be highly regarded is a lage overestatement. herring was a great win, as was schilt. i guess randleman was kinda shitty though, his win over mirko was avenged by a sub, lol at getting subbed by mirko

well they were top 10 heavyweights at that time, its true that HW division was pretty shallow, but the point is that Fedor has been whooping top 10ers consistently no matter who was put in front of him. Take Anderson, who was losing to folks outside of top 10 rather unspectacular. Surely he has improved greatly, but the point is emphasize the contrast in the consistency, which in my opinion is one hella important fact when looking at any sort of ranking. Just look at Soku.