Coaching discussion on Myth - Page 13

heres something i find very misleading. heres a direct quote from his cardrunners coaching profile.

" I have been beating $5/10 and $10/20 cash games online, as well as live, for all of 2008. "

even if this above statement were true it is still extremely misleading. that said i'm pretty sure myth didn't play enough hands at 5/10 & 10/20 to even say if he beat them legitimately yet less played enough and actually won. very misleading imo.

On July 19 2010 12:49 Etherone wrote: really? because i really think the whole insinuation that he might be account sharing hasn't been clarified at all.

I wonder why that is.



Oh, wait.

On July 19 2010 07:54 JDK87 wrote: This is just ridiculous. Totally agree w/Deldar and a lot of other ppl here. It's a) LOL to see losing players charging big amounts of money for coaching on stakes they don't even beat. b) Bullshit to say they should not do this. There are people willing to pay these fees even with all tracking sites clearly indicating that the coach they are paying is not able to beat the stakes; let them. Unless the coaches are hiding certain information or giving out wrong information about their abilities, they are in NO way scamming anyone out of his or her money. So unless Myth is afraid that this thread is going to harm his income by a decrease in studentnumbers, it seems absolutely useless for him to respond here.

Someone pointed out myth said in his coaching profile or w/e that he was beating 5/10 and 10/20 online.... that's most likely not even close to being true.. sadly

On July 19 2010 07:40 whamm! wrote: honestly i think dandydolly is wobbly smurfing love kingsofcards lol j/k about kingsofcards obv

sick read about wobbly, my first thought too. seems pretty obv here

well myth charging 350$/hr is smart and doesn't mean its the final price, because most ppl dont want to pay full price and usually would cut their price down if you negotiate. you don't go into a car dealership or buy a house expecting to pay full price unless you are fyath .

Coaches can teach you how to counter certain situations but they probably just can't adept quick enough.
pretty sure a lot of winning nl50 players can coach better than me. i tried to teach alot of my buddies how to play and i fail miserably at explaining.
if someone is stupid enough to pay 350$ for worthless goods than its their fault for being stupid and not checking before hand, darwinism.

On July 19 2010 13:48 lostaccount wrote: well myth charging 350$/hr is smart and doesn't mean its the final price, because most ppl dont want to pay full price and usually would cut their price down if you negotiate. you don't go into a car dealership or buy a house expecting to pay full price unless you are fyath . Coaches can teach you how to counter certain situations but they probably just can't adept quick enough. pretty sure a lot of winning nl50 players can coach better than me. i tried to teach alot of my buddies how to play and i fail miserably at explaining. if someone is stupid enough to pay 350$ for worthless goods than its their fault for being stupid and not checking before hand, darwinism.

this 100% . So much of my game is like reactionary, its so hard for me to explain to other people my reasoning, Just like swing coaches in golf right? They can teach the game much better than they can play it. Maybe it works the same in poker?

Like if you teach the correct tools to a gifted player, hell eventually learn to use them in better spots, and make better decisions then you ever could. But your responsible for giving them the foundation and framework.

if the player is gifted you only gave him a shortcut to what he would've already learned (and surpassed) ... you're not exactly teaching the man how to fish so you aren't responsible for his results later on.

anyway i very well see the argument for people who aren't able to properly explain their reasoning for how they play how they play, but that's not an argument to counter the opposite. just because this is common it doesn't mean that it should be common for poker coaches not to be winning poker players. that's just faulty logic.

I don't think poker should ever be "reactionary"

Right but many people are unable to control that part of themselves. Maybe others have other things going on in life and they don't want to invest themselves into playing poker. Maybe they just find that poker pisses them off if they lose money. Maybe they have a bad back that prevents them from sitting down for extended periods of time. Maybe etc etc. You can think of many many reasons why a strategically gifted player may be unable to win. Also, as many stated above a good player doesnt necessarily make a good teacher. Someone who is also able to convey rudimentary concepts in a understandable manner could be a good teacher even tho they may not be able to crush high stakes.

I had a buddy who played low stakes but would absolutely emotionally rage if he ever had a day in the red. He would play nonstop til he posted a winning day. He had a very high BB/100 but just simply had emotional problems. He eventually quit despite making a lot of money because he simply couldnt take the emotional stress anymore. I'm pretty sure he's not the only person out there.

There are many reasons why a player who doesn't necessarily win online might be a good coach. You cannot discount that completely. You cannot discount other elements of what it takes to be a successful poker player.

I think one of the points steal city was trying to make that hasn't gotten through is that myth charging $350 is partially a result of his outstanding reputation he has built here and on CR. When he said it made him sick, I don't think it was because he was upset that myth was charging $350 to his students, but that our community (as well as the CR community) essentially vouched for it.

Personally, I feel the market should be buyer beware. If myth is charging $350/hr and his students are loving it, that's great. If they didn't like the service or the value of what they paid for, they have no obligation to return. While I think $350/hr is incredibly overpriced, it's probably fit to meet the demand.

On July 19 2010 15:46 Bigbobm wrote: While I think $350/hr is incredibly overpriced, it's probably fit to meet the demand.

this. while i think it's quite ridiculous.. if i could sell a 5 cent gumball for 200$, i'd do it too

edit: although, advertising being a great big winning player on stakes that you're not seems quite inethical.. bit surprised he'd do that actually. all that being said, i think he does have a very keen poker mind (or portays that anyway) but i think it's pretty sketchy to be false advertising like that.

i'd say the ethics of the situation hinges on whether or not myth has misrepresented his results in online play, which is a pretty subjective matter. it's really irritating that he doesn't post anything here considering just how many scams seem to come from the online poker world...makes me think he knows what he's done is unethical, if not just plain wrong.

hello everyone, I've actually tried to consult Myth in the past about coaching and one of his students in the past about coaching but it never fell through. I will tell you guys my unbiased opinions and what happened during the whole process for each person.

For Myth i contacted him and started chatting with him and he seemed pretty nice at first to share a lot of knowledge about non-autopiloting etc. I didn't really bug him too much but it got to the point where if i tried ot show him a HH he would be like sorry it's for paying students only and the rate is 350 hr or some crap. This made me pretty sick too, I dont understand who in their right mind that plays 200nl and under would pay 350 an hr for coaching, but for people who do get coaching for that rate, more power to them.

For myth's student it was only 100$ an hr but he played the SAME stakes as me at the time (200nl). I even took a few buyins from him at the 6m table and I'm also on some of the CR videos where he sweated his students. But anyhow i reached a block in poker and contacted this guy for lessons. He seemed really strict and if i was late 1 minute for lesson the whole thing would be off. He didn't explain to me how to work Teamspeak and setup the comp viewer thing where you can see each others comp. He just told me to install the programs which I did.

I had already payed the lesson about a week ahead of time and finally when the lesson began I asked him how to work teamspeak and he threw the biggest fit and cancelled the lesson and gave back the 100$.

From what i gather these "poker pro teachers" have pretty good people skills and can get their thoughts about the game very effectively which is why they are so popular. It doesn't mean they are winning poker players themselves. Secondly, I kind of get that they feel above everyone and will not take the time to negotiate things unless it's under their terms only. What i get from their attitudes is that they berate everyone and get pissed if people dont think the way they do or dont understand certain things on their level which I think is wrong.

Also, I think the rate a teacher charges has to be equivalent to half of what they make on an hourly basis. If X teacher makes 200$ an hr they better only charge 100$ an hr but that's MY opinion only. People who are willing to pay 350 an hr (lol) must be some sick ballers that got money to burn or either brainwashed by these teacher's "greatness".

Having said all this im sure Myth and his student are good people in the real world, but they need to reevaluate how much they are charging on this side job they have.

On July 19 2010 15:35 Fayth wrote: I don't think poker should ever be "reactionary"

Well like you cant tell a student if u do A and your opponent does B then you should do C. You have to account for every dif situation. I think of reactionary as, How i react to that certain play at that certain time, because it could vary drastically based on so many dif things. And it just feels like something that is near impossible to explain to a student unless they are on the same wavelength as you.

flounder's story doesn't sound like the myth I know, maybe he was having a real bad day or there's part of the story missing (not accusing flounder or anything, just saying perspective..perspective..). just felt like I should say this.

On July 19 2010 16:42 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 19 2010 15:35 Fayth wrote: I don't think poker should ever be "reactionary" Well like you cant tell a student if u do A and your opponent does B then you should do C. You have to account for every dif situation. I think of reactionary as, How i react to that certain play at that certain time, because it could vary drastically based on so many dif things. And it just feels like something that is near impossible to explain to a student unless they are on the same wavelength as you.

I'm guessing what you mean is that they are not aware of all the variables

On July 19 2010 16:35 flounder44 wrote: hello everyone, I've actually tried to consult Myth in the past about coaching and one of his students in the past about coaching but it never fell through. I will tell you guys my unbiased opinions and what happened during the whole process for each person. For Myth i contacted him and started chatting with him and he seemed pretty nice at first to share a lot of knowledge about non-autopiloting etc. I didn't really bug him too much but it got to the point where if i tried ot show him a HH he would be like sorry it's for paying students only and the rate is 350 hr or some crap. This made me pretty sick too, I dont understand who in their right mind that plays 200nl and under would pay 350 an hr for coaching, but for people who do get coaching for that rate, more power to them. For myth's student it was only 100$ an hr but he played the SAME stakes as me at the time (200nl). I even took a few buyins from him at the 6m table and I'm also on some of the CR videos where he sweated his students. But anyhow i reached a block in poker and contacted this guy for lessons. He seemed really strict and if i was late 1 minute for lesson the whole thing would be off. He didn't explain to me how to work Teamspeak and setup the comp viewer thing where you can see each others comp. He just told me to install the programs which I did. I had already payed the lesson about a week ahead of time and finally when the lesson began I asked him how to work teamspeak and he threw the biggest fit and cancelled the lesson and gave back the 100$. From what i gather these "poker pro teachers" have pretty good people skills and can get their thoughts about the game very effectively which is why they are so popular. It doesn't mean they are winning poker players themselves. Secondly, I kind of get that they feel above everyone and will not take the time to negotiate things unless it's under their terms only. What i get from their attitudes is that they berate everyone and get pissed if people dont think the way they do or dont understand certain things on their level which I think is wrong. Also, I think the rate a teacher charges has to be equivalent to half of what they make on an hourly basis. If X teacher makes 200$ an hr they better only charge 100$ an hr but that's MY opinion only. People who are willing to pay 350 an hr (lol) must be some sick ballers that got money to burn or either brainwashed by these teacher's "greatness". Having said all this im sure Myth and his student are good people in the real world, but they need to reevaluate how much they are charging on this side job they have.

I think you are in the wrong here not Myth. Adding someone because you are interested in coaching and then continuously sending hand histories for advice without agreeing on coaching hours is a real douchebaggy thing to do. Like really bad. If you understand so little of courtesy it is not hard to understand someone getting frustrated with you. I'm not really surprised that after getting off with such a bad start things went downhill from there.

I really didn't want to post in this thread, but I'm going to post a short blurb.

When evaluating the effectiveness of any product, the best and most honest assessment of the product should come from past consumers. In this case, the consumers are current and past students of Corwin's. I have only ever heard students of his hold him in the highest esteem, past and present. Corwin has excellent poker knowledge and great fundamentals, but what makes him a great coach and separate from other coaches are his preparation and eloquence. He is one of the best teachers I know, not just pokerwise.

Regarding Corwin's PTR graphs, I cannot honestly say why they are as they are. Many things can affect our lives that cause our games to deteriorate, even over months at a time. I know I was affected in a similar way once. Although it may seem fair to associate his PTR graphs with his coaching ability and poker knowledge, and for some it may seem like the only tangible piece of evidence that can hold a coach in any sort of esteem, I ask you this: would you rather be coached by biggest PTR winner with consistent bad reviews from his past students, or be coached by someone with good reviews from 100% of his students who, for one reason or another, has a losing PTR graph over 100k+ hands?

Corwin is a great coach. I vouch for his abilities, and if you are indeed skeptical, you can always go for an hour and then reassess. If you don't like the product, don't use it anymore. If you do, keep using it. If you give it a shot though, I'm certain you'll find his coaching will be worth your time.

edit: added spacing for readability.

On July 19 2010 05:09 JonnyCosMo wrote: [QUOTE]On July 19 2010 04:53 Stim_Abuser wrote: you guys need to stop comparing sport coaches who cant play too poker coaches... its beyond ridiculous.

"Why? Explain why sport coaches and poker coaches can't be compared plz." -JonnyCosmo

A poker coach is focused on one individuals development. The coach of a big franchise sports team builds a system that creates a winning team. Their job is not nearly as focused on player development.

The only really good comparable in sports is golf or tennis. In those sports the athletes as individuals hire coaches to help them improve their game. However it is true that the vast majority of the coaches who are working with players ranked in the top 100 at some point played the game at a very high level themselves. Once they got too old to play they switched over to coaching.

Golf & Tennis suffer from the same coaching exploitation at the lower levels. People overpay for expensive lessons from frauds on a regular basis. There is however a system of establishing credibility for coaches in these sports. A certification process that people can then look for when they seek out a coach. Something that says this person has passed X tests of knowledge and been given the right to state they're certified by X to teach golf/tennis. The same type of certification exists for personal trainers, chiropractors, etc. It's not illegal to be a personal trainer or coach in these sports without a license but having one does give you the credibility to attract more clients. Just rambling on here....