Coaching discussion on Myth - Page 7

On July 18 2010 15:16 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On July 18 2010 14:28 FrinkX wrote:   On July 18 2010 14:06 Loco wrote: the simple fact that you can have those habits show how fortunate you are and have gotten, and the fact that you're irratated simply shows how much of an ungrateful prick you are about your life. sure you haven't been lucky in the past couple of years, boo-fucking-hoo. you are a huge lucksack, and i don't envy you one fucking second for it just by looking at how you act. you're the one who's completely clueless. since you are so results oriented and can't look at the big picture i'm trying to paint let me offer you this reminder of your yearly recap of 2008:   On December 30 2008 13:32 FrinkX wrote: Also a big big BIG thank you to peachy for staking me and being so patient with me. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't have made a significant amount money from poker and I would have coasted for years and then had to move on. Now I have a really solid start and the opportunity to make a LOT more money in something I actually enjoy doing. Thank you so much all i'm saying is that I (and many others) didn't have that luck you had at that moment. you didn't have to put nearly as much effort as we had to because you were financially comfortable. comfortable enough to be extravagant. you can cower behind the idea that you're a better player than me all you want it doesn't change that fact. i am so grateful for my life but i dont for one second think im just a lucksack given all the effort i have put into this game how and why are u calling me a huge lucksack wtf. if u are referencing my poker skill fine that's your opinion, but wtf? we both have the same life, just a different variation and different life choices. you had JUST AS MANY OPPORTUNITIES AS I DID god damnit man before my mother fucking wpt ft and ftops 2nd place i was -100k to peachy, in small debt to my friends and pretty much broke. i road out this status for a really long time until i finally binked the inevitable. now im broke again because i continued the same patterns and hit a retarded bout of negative variance in the ONLY thing i regret about the last 3 years is not grinding cash games on the side in order to maintain my life style. i def. do not regret the money i spent or the life choices i made but what the fuck about my post about peachy? who the fuck cares. i was sick grateful that he staked me and if he didnt wind up staking me i would have easily found a different backer. i meant it, if it wasnt for him (or w/e backer i did a deal with) i would not have made that money because at that time in my life online cash grind was simply NOT going to happen regardless of my financial status and ur right, boo fucking hoo that i havent won anything since 2009, it sure does suck but yeah, i should have made lots of $ in cash games i just cant believe u keep calling me ungrateful for my life and a huge lucksack. i def. think i put in enough of a sample size to justify my results (prior to my epic live downswing) i am obviously grateful for my life... ur quote from long ago proved it wtf the ONLY thing i have been irriated with or a prick about is your fucking peice of shit assumptions about our lives and our poker careers i have too many tournament tables running right now to really give an organized argument. i rly dont know what ur problem is with me but ur views on me and my life and my general attitude are completely wrong frinkx, first of all i don't have anything against the way you live. it's your choice, we pursue happiness however we know best. i'm glad you are happy, so am i and we've taken different paths. i do believe mine is more sustainable, but i don't believe you are stupid for not sharing it. i'd have to believe that pretty much all my friends are stupid if i did. i think it has very little to do with intelligence anyway and a lot more to do with introspection. the way you expressed yourself before this message sounded like you weren't grateful the slightest, which is something everyone tends to do when things haven't been going their way (when it's perceived as such). me quoting you was a simple reality check because you didn't seem to acknowledge your position as having had it easier than me or other grinders. you also seem to believe that you being in a pinch before is a justification for you not being particularly lucky but hard working. from what i remember reading, you weren't exactly smart with your money and you had dug your own hole. not variance. and if you wish for us to believe that it's variance, then you'll have a lot of evidence to show because it doesn't add up with the fact that you couldn't win at online poker (or even play it) anymore. i'm not sure i buy the argument that someone else would've staked you and all. i think you were quite lucky someone did, really. i don't think it's that easy at all. but anyway, it's not really worth discussing what might have happened. and no, the quote only proved that you were sick grateful at that time, not necessarily now.

u came off as having something against our way of life and general attitude towards life and seemed to attack it so i responded angrily, but maybe i read wrong given i skimmed most stuff

someone else has picked up my staking, im not with peachy anymore. sure its years later but my same backer would have picked me up at that time im fairly sure of it, obv no way to prove

if i came off as non appreciative before it was not intentional and only because i tried to have this argument while 8 tabling tourneys

i have said that my busto position are due to my lack of cash grind while i played high variance live tourneys. i am completely aware that my current situation (and situation before my binks) is completely my own fault. i easily coulda made plenty of money grinding cash but i just didnt put the grind in, so yes its my fault. but over the last 2 years I have run especially bad at tournaments and not made money when i probably should have - these are 2 separate things i didnt mean to clump them together.

"then you'll have a lot of evidence to show because it doesn't add up with the fact that you couldn't win at online poker (or even play it) anymore."

where do u get this from? back when i did grind 2/4 i was a 6 ptbb winner or something longterm (again, not retardedly huge sample but i used to have about a 150k hand database).. since then (when ptr came out basically) i've probably played like 40k hands total (spread over time) of 2/4 deep ante tables and i've about broken even at it from playing pretty ridiculously

recently i've been grinding rush 1/2 and im about 50k hands in and running at 8 ptbb

what angers me about all this is u keep saying things like i cant beat online poker without knowing... or that i blame variance in live tournaments for my current situation or that im not appreciative now... how am i not appreciative? sure i havent progressed $ wise in the last 3 years if u look at it from the start until now, but I live half a block from the beach in a really nice house in san diego, CA, i drive a BMW i have a nice watch i (until recently) had a wonderful girlfriend and wonderful friends and so many amazing memories that i would never trade for anything. even tho i may not have tons of loot i still have the ability to make tons of loot if i merely set my mind to it and put in more grind

i also think u greatly underestimate how many lives tournaments i've played... i really put a ton of time into them

most of what u've said about me is completely wrong.. i dont know what u think u know about me but its really off

User was warned for this post

sry didnt see if i was told to stop, was grinding and only read loco's posts

Im still curious, because I cant come to conclusion while reading this thread: is the discussion about Myth's capabilities as coach in general or about the insane rate he is charging?

Was both. Then loco got loco and Frinkx emoraged.

On July 18 2010 15:54 TheHuHu3 wrote: I really don't know why Steal City opened this thread. If the answer is "to educate the public" then that's a bullshit excuse. If anyone actually fondles with the idea of getting coaching it's up to the STUDENT whether or not they will investigate the coach. If that student doesn't, then it's ALL ON HIM. Everyone in this thread is either attacking or defending Myth's reputation as a poker player, NOT A COACH, which inherently is wrong to begin with because this thread is about his COACHING skills. From what I hear, all of his students give him rave reviews so what's the problem? The one thing people in this thread haven't touched on is the lack of personal responsibility on the student's end. If you blindly go into a student/coaching operation with no history/background/information/investigation on your coach then you're a goddamned retard who deserves to lose his money. Myth isn't a scammer or a cheater. He gives people an hourly rate PER HIS CHOICE, and people can DECIDE whether or not to pay it. No one is forcing anyone to be Myth's student at all. /thread

i'm growing increasingly tired of this thread and your post doesn't help. i can't help but feel like you haven't even read the thread. everything you've just said has been covered already and you're not even expressing that you disagree with those opinions, but instead you make it look like it wasn't brought up at all.

"I really don't know why Steal City opened this thread. If the answer is "to educate the public" then that's a bullshit excuse."

i can't advance myself and say why he has opened it but i know why it's still opened (and was re-opened) and that's what's really relevant here, not the initial feelings of OP.

"If anyone actually fondles with the idea of getting coaching it's up to the STUDENT whether or not they will investigate the coach. If that student doesn't, then it's ALL ON HIM."

some of us don't see things this way. or at least not entirely. the student has to investigate with what he's given. if he doesn't have access to the whole story then he can't make a great decision. the student has to make it either on faith or based on evidence. if there's no real evidence except reputation, that really is just faith then, isn't it? and that's what's being exposed here so that people can make the decision they wish based on that. our duty in this community is to bring up any ethical concerns relating to members of our community and keeping it clean.

"The one thing people in this thread haven't touched on is the lack of personal responsibility on the student's end. If you blindly go into a student/coaching operation with no history/background/information/investigation on your coach then you're a goddamned retard who deserves to lose his money."

no. read tomson's posts again.

"Myth isn't a scammer or a cheater. He gives people an hourly rate PER HIS CHOICE, and people can DECIDE whether or not to pay it. No one is forcing anyone to be Myth's student at all."

nobody said he was any of those things, just that he maybe hadn't represented himself perfectly, and that his rate is unjustified. i see the same argument in everything you say. according to you, if a con man cons someone, the victim is to be blamed and the conman is just doing what he knows how to do best, and we should just step aside and not expose him. of course i'm not saying this is what myth is here, it's more delicate. i'm just stating that because it pertains to the way you're arguing this as if we didn't have any responsibility to be honest toward one another and expose someone who's been misrepresented. i mean, i thought myth was a fairly big winner back then, and i sure as hell am not the only one, so i certainly would've liked this information to be made public a long time ago. i didn't know he was charging this much before this thread either.

On July 18 2010 16:12 Defrag wrote: Im still curious, because I cant come to conclusion while reading this thread: is the discussion about Myth's capabilities as coach in general or about the insane rate he is charging?

both, wasnt the point hes charging a really high rate and doesnt have the ptr to prove it?

but its just like what loco is saying about my inability to win @ online poker and he bases this on my lack of results... which are obv due to nonstop live play, just like myth

frinkx, i haven't read the post you were warned about but i will and if there's anything i'll pm you. i just want to say that i didn't say anything about your inability to win at online poker right now, but at the point where you became a live player, and it was especially not because of lack of results after you transitioned to live, but rather because of lack of good results beforehand.

I just want to say that I think that Myth can charge more than others based on the fact that he has a lot of students who are apparently satisfied with his coaching. Knowing that you will likely be satisfied with the coaching is worth quite a bit in a business like that imo.

Also, I dont see what the point is of bringing up Myth possibly overcharging for his product. If its too steep then dont buy it. If its too steep people will voice complaints and he will eventually have to lower it substantially once it comes out that it is overpriced (if it even is).

Finally, I'd like to state my worthless opinion that I think that Myth is a good coach but I would personally never pay someone a lot more than their hourly and I also think that there is possibly better coaching for less money out there. But I KNOW that I would be satisfied with his coaching. Much like buying clothes imo.

The main point is, that you're pretty damn stupid if you cannot figure out that good results=good coaching is true and that there is nothing else to add to the equation.

There doesn't seem to be any legitimate credential system for coaches. I think it looks bad on LP and the other sites like CR that don't seem to take much responsibility for those they endorse as good poker players. Last I checked LP takes a small % of the coaching fees charged by players who are endorsed as coaches on this website through the coaching profiles page. Is this still true mods or has that system been long since changed?

Proposed changes:

1. All coaches with valid credentials are posted on a coaches section of LP with profiles. I believe this is already the case with LP taking a small % on any coaching deals done through this process?

2. All LP coaches post before and after results for each student on their profile page. The 3 months previous to coaching and the 3 months afterward. Screenames can be blurred out and known only to LP mods. Mods should come up with a way to verify these students.

3. All coaches have a winning PTR with at least 100k hands played in the past year at each limit they coach.

4. At least 3 references for each coach from highly respected players.

It's probably a pipe-dream to ask for a system like this to be put into action but seriously if people want coaching scams to stop some of the big poker communities need to step up and establish credential earning systems for their coaches. This is especially true of the sites are taking a small cut of what the coaches are charging in exchange for giving them the credentials in the first place.

On July 18 2010 16:21 rednalluk wrote: I just want to say that I think that Myth can charge more than others based on the fact that he has a lot of students who are apparently satisfied with his coaching.

This has been repeated several times but has not been substantiated with any fact or testimonial besides one.

"William James (1842-1910) The father of modern Psychology "There's nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it.""

Not saying it isn't true. Just saying.

I think if students are happy then that's all that matters. Price obv isnt to high if people are still willing to pay it.

On July 18 2010 15:36 RaSZi wrote: I think it's kind of silly btw to gauge results on a heavily inaccurate site.

its been pretty damn accurate as of the past year or so now. i could see arguing how results prior to that time period could hold far less weight than more recent results though

On July 18 2010 16:50 Bigbobm wrote: Show nested quote + On July 18 2010 15:36 RaSZi wrote: I think it's kind of silly btw to gauge results on a heavily inaccurate site. its been pretty damn accurate as of the past year or so now.

Its always been good for FTP but it has always been off for stars.

FTP i agree, I can't speak for stars but i remember someone (maybe nolan) saying it was almost dead on with his database over a pretty large sample

On July 18 2010 16:38 [GiTM]-Ace wrote: I think if students are happy then that's all that matters. Price obv isnt to high if people are still willing to pay it.

which students are happy?
i saw 3 posts from claimed students.

one said he was happy ( vague)
one said myth plugged 2 obvious ( to myth) leaks and was so happy he'd recommend myth to others.
one said myth was a player with abilities below his own, and was unhappy.

anyone else? and can anyone ( namely myth) confirm these were in fact his students?

i still think the account sharing possibility is more important than him overpricing his rates even though i find that's also worth a discussion

I feel really neutral on this topic. It's just a standard 'buyer beware'

But I really feel like a coach has to have a proven track record to a point. Right now I'm taking golf lessons from a golf pro at a course I beat about 50% when we go out and play. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy his coaching. However if I had a golf instructor who told me all the things my golf coach does now and didn't apply it to his own game and was just basically feeding me lines that he knows a golf instructor should give I'd be kinda pissed off.

They both give you the same information but one of them backs up his knowledge of the game with results.

Some people might be okay with that others might not be. I'm not sure if my point is clear enough for other people to understand xD

Another example would be a computer repair service - geek squad will do the same thing I can do for 150 bucks more. Does it piss me off? Of course because they get more business than I do and people will happily pay for that service thinking they got a solid deal. But it doesn't mean I can't inform them they just got suckered out of 150 bucks because they didn't shop around for the same service and in turn take their business away from the geek squad the next time they need their computer fully serviced.


edit: I'm also more interested in as to why Myth can't talk about his ptr. I feel the longer the thread is open with no response the worse it looks.
edit2: But I feel like his tourney accomplishments are worth mention so I don't have an issue in him coaching for tourney's.

@Etherone:

I've gone through Corwin's coaching program and was very happy with the results. I often recommend $200nl, MTT, and Rush players to seek coaching from Corwin. I've also had informal lessons with Nutedawg and Haseeb Qureshi and feel like they were all comparable in coaching skill and information for the budding MSNL grinder, and often gave similar advice in certain situations (though they obviously have style differences).

When I was choosing Corwin as a coach, I just saw this (http://www.bluffmagazine.com/players/corwin-cole/41688/player-profile.asp) and that was enough.

It's like oh, -12k on FTP. Sucks. But then +470k. That's enough for me to think "Oh, clearly a winning player."

If ya'll have any questions as my experience as a student, I'll be glad to answer them here! Toodles.

brb getting coaching from darwin moon, clearly winning player.

It's like oh, -12k on FTP. Sucks. But then +470k. That's enough for me to think "Oh, clearly a winning player."

I think that's a dangerous way to decide on a coach personally but again this is all so subjective I'm more interested in the reasons behind why he can't explain his ptr.

brb learning how to compare sample sizes