Damn it live players....

Live Game #55443637447: Hold'em No Limit ($1/2 USD) - 2011/01/05 23:40:20 PT [2011/01/06 2:40:20 ET]
Table 'LOL We CALL' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: SleepAwayVV
Seat 2: AndréF.BR
Seat 3: Pe1rucho
Seat 4: ThatsTheTnyG
Seat 5: Austin3535
Seat 6: jeremaroto
Pe1rucho: posts small blind $1
Me: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Me
WhyWouldIFold: calls $2
HERPDERP: calls $2
ThisIsJustLikeSlotsRight?: calls $2
WheresMyOxygen: calls $2
FatherTime: folds
OnlinePokersRigged: folds
IBragAboutGoingToTheWSOP: $2
IThinkIShitMyself: folds
Me: checks
*** FLOP ***
Gigantic Rake takes $4
Me: bets $11
WhyWouldIFold: calls $11
HERPDERP: calls $11
ThisIsJustLikeSlotsRight?: folds
WheresMyOxygen: folds
IBragAboutGoingToTheWSOP: folds

Turn (Pot : 0.00)


Me: bets $25
WhyWouldIFold: calls $25
HERPDERP: folds

River (Pot : 0.00)


Me: checks
WhyWouldIFold: bets $15
Me: calls $15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
WhyWouldIFold: shows
Me: mucks hand

0 votes

hmm, well bet quite small, which can only mean 1 thing, you expect a larger raise would fold them out? idk what your thoughts are but basically I would have bet flop much larger, turn much larger. So idk, 4-18+? flop, turn something like 90% of pot? something like that. Then on river say fuck.

If i had to guess, you are probably viewed as being tight and nitty/aggressive not showing much action?

so because of that you didn't want to scare people away and hope they call lite with weak TP hands/drawy hands, price them in with their retardation? Idk but you want to price people in with your strong invulnerable hands on hard to hit boards. Vs so many limps this board hits a lot of random shit like 56o, shitty suited Queens they play, all their strong queens they play lol, sometimes their retarded kk, AA hands and lots of random Straight draws. This is a spot to go for max value since the people who will call a small bet are probably the same people calling a larger one.

On January 16 2011 22:22 Highcard wrote: so because of that you didn't want to scare people away and hope they call lite with weak TP hands/drawy hands, price them in with their retardation? Idk but you want to price people in with your strong invulnerable hands on hard to hit boards. Vs so many limps this board hits a lot of random shit like 56o, shitty suited Queens they play, all their strong queens they play lol, sometimes their retarded kk, AA hands and lots of random Straight draws. This is a spot to go for max value since the people who will call a small bet are probably the same people calling a larger one.

I think my problem I am having with live is people don't think in terms of pot size, while I do. I potted flop and bet 25, which should have been more. They look at bet sizing in terms of the dollar amount. IDK, I was mostly griped with the fact that he called flop with absolutely nothing to spike the runner runner on me

On January 16 2011 22:17 Highcard wrote: If i had to guess, you are probably viewed as being tight and nitty/aggressive not showing much action?

After viewing the table for an orbit, I did not see much folding, nor any intentions of folding with any piece of the board, whether it be a low FD, gutshot, etc.

I decided sitting back and value towning the fuck outta them was the best course of action, and toning my bet sizing thusly. I was pretty card dead, but the time I picked up hands I just bombed it and still got callers. One hand when I picked up pocket jacks, there were 4 limpers, I raised to 19, and still got 2 callers. Very profitable, just wish I was rolled to play it normally. I think with such weak fields that I could overcome the massive rake they take

that is, unless, you are a nit and never have been seen raising flops, etc.etc.

yes I looked are your stakes and thought this was partially a bankroll problem, as well as not really applying proper betting principles. Your flop raise is too small even if it were online and not close to pot size. Your turn bet is too small almost always.

But yes you even said they are calling everything and value owning themselves. The point is, if they are going to call for that small raise, their same thinking is going to apply to a larger raise/bet. They are going to just going to say different words. for a small bet they will say "Hmm I will call and try to spike a card and win the hand" vs a bigger raise/bet "Hmm i am going to call and try to spike a card and win a huge pot" either way, they are calling you

I have no idea how much you had in your hand stake sizes but again on flop I would have raised no smaller than $16, but 18-22 more like it. On turn, you would be looking at at least 90% bet. As you saw, that guy with K7 could have easily just been retarded and called the flop, once he hit that King, he probably would have paid off a nice river size bet too, probably stack size wise would have been an allin.

On January 16 2011 22:34 Highcard wrote: yes I looked are your stakes and thought this was partially a bankroll problem, as well as not really applying proper betting principles. Your flop raise is too small even if it were online and not close to pot size. Your turn bet is too small almost always.

It was funny, because the play was so bad that it had me confused in a few spots. The table would go limp, limp, limp, raise to 3 bb's, call call, min raise to 6bb's, call, call, call. The board would check down 4 ways, and the guy who minraised to 6 bb's shows A-10o and takes down the pot...

I felt I played well, folding king high flushes and other tough spots and being right, so I was proud of that. I was fairly card dead as well, which did not help, as I viewed a ton of spots that were just so juicy but required card strength to win, as there was basically no fold equity at all.

I of course cbet, but I think I only double barreled once with overs and an open ended SD, which was quickly called by 4th pair not on the board. We both checked river and he was just about to muck his hand when he saw that I only had king high, and showed his hand. Its like he called turn, and even on a blank river, he was still expecting to lose.

I dont play live but how can you raise the flop if you're first to act?

and dont say c/r lol

On January 16 2011 22:39 Highcard wrote: I have no idea how much you had in your hand stake sizes but again on flop I would have raised no smaller than $16, but 18-22 more like it. On turn, you would be looking at at least 90% bet. As you saw, that guy with K7 could have easily just been retarded and called the flop, once he hit that King, he probably would have paid off a nice river size bet too, probably stack size wise would have been an allin.

Yeah, my bet sizing is definitely an issue, but I am finding it hard to try to put myself in their shoes and finding the appropriate sizing to where they will call with their garbage instead of folding. I keep looking for any sort of logic they use with their ranges, but I was not able to find any. This is probly a leak on my part that I was not able to find that sweet spot, but as my roll builds I'm sure I will be able to find that sweet spot

On January 16 2011 22:43 jeffv8x_-_16 wrote: I dont play live but how can you raise the flop if you're first to act? and dont say c/r lol

I wrote "Gigantic Rake takes $4," I was the first to bet

oh wait, wtf that is gigantic rake, $4 not a small donk. Ok i missread this for bet sizing on flop sorry.

so what, there was $8 in pot?, how the fuck do they rake 33% on flop

On January 16 2011 22:50 Highcard wrote: so what, there was $8 in pot?, how the fuck do they rake 33% on flop

I think it was like 12-14 going in, and they take 4 before the flop

Ok, well if there was actually $8 then throwing int anything potsize or bigger was good. But now since you never CR or anything, Turn should also be potsize or bigger. If river was any bricky type card then another nice pot size or bigger would suffice.

On January 16 2011 22:48 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On January 16 2011 22:43 jeffv8x_-_16 wrote: I dont play live but how can you raise the flop if you're first to act? and dont say c/r lol I wrote "Gigantic Rake takes $4," I was the first to bet

i saw that, i was replying to highcard obv

On January 16 2011 22:52 Highcard wrote: Ok, well if there was actually $8 then throwing int anything potsize or bigger was good. But now since you never CR or anything, Turn should also be potsize or bigger. If river was any bricky type card then another nice pot size or bigger would suffice.

Yeah, plan was to bomb river, but when king came, I wanted to puke. I should have bet turn bigger, but I did not want to price them out too much, as I put them on a crappy queen. However, for some reason when he bet 15 on the river, I somehow knew he had a K. Yet I still paid him off which I think is bad on my part, even if the bet is so small in comparison to the pot size.

Really wish I could see the logic in calling a near pot size bet on that flop with 1 over with others to act behind you. I wanted to ask some of them why they played certain hands, but I felt if I did so it would give me even more of a headache lol

The reason why you want to do that is mainly because they are calling too much, this is the first big hand you are potentially showing and you want to lay down the foundation for an image that is most productive for getting max value and future fold equity. If you go potsize or bigger, 3 streets, and they call. Entire table see your 2 pair and bet sizing, now in future if you want to bluff and use a big bet, they will have even more reason to fold that 4th pair

well, at least you know what his limping, floating, turn calling range is.

On January 16 2011 22:56 Highcard wrote: The reason why you want to do that is mainly because they are calling too much, this is the first big hand you are potentially showing and you want to lay down the foundation for an image that is most productive for getting max value and future fold equity. If you go potsize or bigger, 3 streets, and they call. Entire table see your 2 pair and bet sizing, now in future if you want to bluff and use a big bet, they will have even more reason to fold that 4th pair

Isn't that counter productive against opponents with such bizarre ranges that are very call happy? If my pot bets are bluffs, they have to work extremely often for it to be profitable.

I don't expect fish to value bet river with a queen there, or really anything that is weakmade. So he will either make some gay bluff like that, or just a value bet. So i guess it just depends on if you have ever seen what his betting sizes are for value and for bluffs.

ok I will try to think about how i think about bluff sizes vs fish that is

There are a few types of fish, some people who call down super lite with any pair to river and end of folding if it gets super scary, or call when it isn't that scary. Say they have A6 on a 6J4r, 8r,2r. Some fish will call 3 barrels even very large bets. But say it runs off and there is now a flush. Betting river smallish to make it look like a flush that wants to get called is not going to work against a fish. They will just call because they are curious and/or already like calling. You will want to make a big strong bet. If you have already shown a river where you bet huge with a big hand than this looks even more credible. But anyways, you want to maximise fold equity against calling stations if there is a big hand that can be represented.

So instead the board is slightly drawy, and you know he likes to chase overs/flush/gutshot/straights. If the board runs out in bricks, then this is a spot where you'd rather bet smaller if you know he does draw lite but obviously cant call river when he bricks too.

Do not try to get him off of made 'strong' hands, like if you suspect he has an Ace Top pair, going 3 streets with bombs probably is suicide as he will still just call with his A4o

Say you are against a calling station and the river is like $100potsize you both have $150behind, there was a scary draw on flop and river it hits. You know he probably just has his callingstation pair. This is a good spot to overbet shove. Just because it has to work idk, 60%-70% of the time, it probably will work that much. Will give you a great image of strong player and lots of action in future if you do get called.

On January 16 2011 23:12 Highcard wrote: There are a few types of fish, some people who call down super lite with any pair to river and end of folding if it gets super scary, or call when it isn't that scary. Say they have A6 on a 6J4r, 8r,2r. Some fish will call 3 barrels even very large bets. But say it runs off and there is now a flush. Betting river smallish to make it look like a flush that wants to get called is not going to work against a fish. They will just call because they are curious and/or already like calling. You will want to make a big strong bet. If you have already shown a river where you bet huge with a big hand than this looks even more credible. But anyways, you want to maximise fold equity against calling stations if there is a big hand that can be represented. So instead the board is slightly drawy, and you know he likes to chase overs/flush/gutshot/straights. If the board runs out in bricks, then this is a spot where you'd rather bet smaller if you know he does draw lite but obviously cant call river when he bricks too.

Ah okay, so you mean betting big with made hands. You mean when you have a good hand, and there are any draws on the board, bet big as they are going to pay anything to see if their draws hit.

My dilemma was in my common practice of semibluffing with bigger hands such as overs with an open ender. Your goal is for them to fold, yet you still have outs if they call. When you are facing stations that call down huge bets very light, I am unsure of how to deal with this as I am not sure if the math works out for me to keep betting when I have very little fold equity on the flop and turn bets

Otherwise, if you are not willing to make big bets on rivers when you can represent big hands, than you should stop cbetting every time you miss. There is really nothing wrong with never betting when all you have is some weak overs and no backdoors vs calling stations/multiway pots. They aren't going to adjust and say, "He never bets when he misses and always bets when he hits. So I will bet everytime he checks and fold when he bets"

Also, stop worry about sizing your bets like 2/3 or 3/4. If you have a big hand you must get max value from it by betting as large as you can each street. If, over time, they realize you are betting huge and actually start folding than you can start to open your range and cbetting again with weaker missed flops.

Ok, when you have semibluffing hands. If you know they are always calling, even calling brick rivers and some scare card rivers. They you should stop barreling your semibluff air. If you know they are going to check weak hands down when you nocontinuationbet or bet small. Than you can start to check and try to see free turns/rivers. If you do hit, then throw in a pot bet or larger. Do that until they start folding. If they never fold, than you are obviously seeing free cards and making huge profit from it, if they do start folding, than you now gained respect to start bluffing.

The only reason why you cbet or semi bluff is if you have fold equity and add some balance for your bigger hands. If they are just calling down all the time anyways, than you will have more variance constantly barreling weak semi bluffs without river fold equity.

TY for all the help Highcard

np