Bitcoin's and the future of online banking - Page 2

On April 16 2011 13:46 Funktion wrote: Show nested quote + On April 16 2011 04:20 Steal City wrote:   On April 16 2011 04:14 Funktion wrote:   On April 16 2011 03:54 Steal City wrote: It will take time to spread awareness. Trust will be automatic once people understand it. Because you don't need to trust anyone or any government. You need to trust the code which you can see. It's like saying you need to trust physical laws or that gravity will exist tomorrow. Yes it's been my experience that people instantly trust new technologies and aren't sceptical at all. Especially when it comes to money, people couldn't be more trusting. That is one shit analogy you used. Gravity isn't man made or subject to greed. I said spread awareness. If you were actually aware of it you would trust it. Gravity is the perfect analogy you are just ignorant of what you are commenting on. You can go in and read the code. If you know code, you can read it like you would read English or Spanish. You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity I'm not ignorant you're analogy just sucks balls. I have a degree in Computer and Info Science, what do you have? Second hand knowledge as if it were gospel? This might be the next big thing in internet technology but to say people should and would trust it instantly is fucking retarded. Last I checked its not real easy to hack or exploit gravity. Maybe you have no clue on the history of internet crime etc. But there is always some smart dude out there who takes it as a challenge to beat something and this will be beaten. Sure it will be patched and improved but you make it sound like it is PERFECT now. Perfection just doesn't happen in the coding or systems world. There will be some weakness somewhere maybe not in the encryption or databases or whatever but I guarantee there will be an exploit of some kind. It took years and years for people to trust online banking. And banks at least when internet transactions were becoming popular were mostly thought of as safe. If it took years for the banking industry to build up a decent online sector do you really think that over night some open source currency is going to take over the world? Fucking wake up man. I'm not saying it can't and won't happen I'm saying that the shit you are typing is way over hyped. I get that these bitcoin people and yourself are excited about the possibilities but just because you're convinced doesn't mean the masses are. I also see the points in that above article it cites as positives can easily be demonstrated as negatives. Anonymity and no intermediaries is all well and good but it's a two way street and sounds like the perfect breeding ground for scammers to me. You say "You don't have to trust any human being or community of human beings, you have to trust the mathematical and visible code which is in place... IE the mathematical laws... like the physical law of gravity." Out of the 6 billion people on earth how many do you think know enough about either mathematics or code to go and read it themselves and make an informed judgement? Your statements are just moronic and not based in the real world. I can explain to someone the concept of gravity in like 1 sentence, can you really do the same with this technology? I mean previously you said, "We could look at their business and tell them TODAY how much money they could save by taking off the overhead of excessive bank costs." Which is such an over simplified statement it's just ridiculous (and yes I know something about this shit as I'm currently doing a finance degree, which I'm sure you already have). I can't even be bothered going on anymore as this shit is way too long as is, could probably write another 3k words on your leaps in logic and simplistic statements. TLDR You have blind faith and bitcoin is your religion.

I have a degree from a college that isn't 2nd rate so lol at "Info Science". Every technology has positives and negatives. Scammers can scam you face to face, people can buy drugs with cash... you are not seeing the big picture. I'm not saying 6 billion people can read the code. I can't but there is trust via social proof and you just have to trust fewer people. When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it.

ok i'm not getting into a fight with you. You can't grasp it no, biggie. You already trust the same software with an added level of a company having your info and being able to maliciously use it. So This way you cut out the company and the software is open source and scrutinized like none other.

You should learn to read up on things so that you actually know what to criticise instead of just accusing people of what in the end amounts to nothing. I'm doing a favour to LP letting them know about this.

how u withdraw, from the bitcoin system, to get real cash, cuz bars, local stores etc, they want CASH,
and how u avoid banks, in the process of exchanging bitcoins to real cash

On April 16 2011 14:12 Steal City wrote: I have a degree from a college that isn't 2nd rate so lol at "Info Science". Every technology has positives and negatives. Scammers can scam you face to face, people can buy drugs with cash... you are not seeing the big picture. I'm not saying 6 billion people can read the code. I can't but there is trust via social proof and you just have to trust fewer people. When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it. ok i'm not getting into a fight with you. You can't grasp it no, biggie.

Errr info is information abbreviated. Which if you had half a brain you would know. Did you really just not know what that meant and yet your here preaching about technology? The balls of some people. What is your degree? You didn't state it so it's obviously not relevant to this subject or worthless. Arts maybe?

Trust via social proof? GTFO. Banks have less developed software? You really have no knowledge of this field AT ALL do you. You're a gullible moron feeding shit to anyone you hope will listen. At least when Genjix talked about this it was obvious that he had a decent grasp of the subject (maybe his vision was a bit grandiose). He gave DETAILS when and where he could. You use nonsensical analogies and call people Luddites. You're doing great at getting the message out there to your target market buddy, keep it up!

On April 16 2011 14:12 Steal City wrote: When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it. You should learn to read up on things so that you actually know what to criticise instead of just accusing people of what in the end amounts to nothing. I'm doing a favour to LP letting them know about this.

The banking industries have a LOT at stake if they fuck up your money and it gets hacked/stolen/whatever. If an issue did arise, they would certainly remedy it. Why? Due to the profit they're making, and the sensitivity regarding peoples views on 'digital' money being thrown around or whatever.

If I look in my account, and see that it got charged for something it shouldn't have.. or if someone over in Texas somehow bought a bunch of shit on my CC, I simply pick up my phone, sit on hold for 5 minutes, talk to somebody for different amounts of time (depending on the seriousness of the issue) and voila, situation resolved.

Just reading a couple paragraphs about bitcoin.. how if you don't save your e-wallet, the bitcoins disappear. If you don't back it up after EVERY transaction, you run the risk of it disappearing. You say that all we have to do is trust the software.. what about these 'nodes' on which it's all based on? wtf is that all about. If these little pieces of zynga chips get lost, you have zero chance of getting it back.

I dunno, I'd rather pay the current fee (which, I don't even think there is when I use ebay, amazon, etc. on my credit card), simply for the piece of mind.

That being said, I did once try out moneybookers ages ago, and I couldn't believe the % of fee's there. Solution? Didn't use them again.

edit: Again, not bashing this idea or anything as that would be extremely ignorant to completely turn your nose at something that can potentially be very beneficial - I'm just wondering if any of the concerns mentioned are valid, or am I stupid in thinking so?

Note that I'm not against the change in anyway, I like new things and this bitcoin thing obviously sounds good for a commoner like me. So yeah, calling me Luddite and whatnot (which I was ignorant of until I looked it up, and clearly, I know for sure that I am not of such kind) was kind of uncalled for. I don't even know how you got such an impression, I was simply inquiring about some stuff that I am ignorant about. That doesn't make me suddenly "against" this whole bitcoin thing. That just makes me say, "you know what, fuck you and your rupees".

I was just inquiring about its realistic, commercial success. We are all poker players here and we are as real as gets when it comes to the matter of money. I may not be aware of all the intricacies of all this in play, but my question was basically could this thing be beneficial for everyone, even the businesses, and the government, and not just for the convenience of people. Because I figured there's a good amount of money being made for the things being the way they are, and with the introduction of bitcoins, there could be some loss in revenue in that regards, so I was curious if there was a way bitcoin can compensate for the loss of revenue there. To which I think you replied, "yeah, there is", so I'm like, "okay".


Funktion's concerns are legitimate, and he speaks much of what I, an ignorant individual (generally) concern about as well. I think it'd be best if you can explain all these things in the most rudimentary level possible so even a dumbass like me can understand, instead of having to cite to bunch of videos and articles (although, they are a bonus and you should keep referring to them for sheer reference purposes, it adds credibility if anything).

But the whole credential thing is extremely stupid imho. And I hope both of you would stop, especially Funktion since you are the one pressing the issue here. I feel stupid to explain why.

On April 16 2011 14:42 ShLiM wrote: how u withdraw, from the bitcoin system, to get real cash, cuz bars, local stores etc, they want CASH, and how u avoid banks, in the process of exchanging bitcoins to real cash

markets will build around bitcoin. Obv users will exchange first when sending internationally in order to save on exchanges and transfer costs.

Basically, would u rather send a transfer for 30$ and wait 7 business days or send it for 0 to 1 penny and get it in 20 minutes.

On April 16 2011 14:43 Funktion wrote: Show nested quote + On April 16 2011 14:12 Steal City wrote: I have a degree from a college that isn't 2nd rate so lol at "Info Science". Every technology has positives and negatives. Scammers can scam you face to face, people can buy drugs with cash... you are not seeing the big picture. I'm not saying 6 billion people can read the code. I can't but there is trust via social proof and you just have to trust fewer people. When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it. ok i'm not getting into a fight with you. You can't grasp it no, biggie. Errr info is information abbreviated. Which if you had half a brain you would know. Did you really just not know what that meant and yet your here preaching about technology? The balls of some people. What is your degree? You didn't state it so it's obviously not relevant to this subject or worthless. Arts maybe? Trust via social proof? GTFO. Banks have less developed software? You really have no knowledge of this field AT ALL do you. You're a gullible moron feeding shit to anyone you hope will listen. At least when Genjix talked about this it was obvious that he had a decent grasp of the subject (maybe his vision was a bit grandiose). He gave DETAILS when and where he could. You use nonsensical analogies and call people Luddites. You're doing great at getting the message out there to your target market buddy, keep it up!

I don't know why you're being aggressive like this. I'm trying to make this info discernible. Saying that things don't permeate society when they offer such a social good is just silly. Saying that businesses aren't competitive... I will answer questions people have as a favour to LP but i'm not going to respond to dribble

Also I went to a good college and don't have a BS degree

On April 16 2011 15:29 devon06atX wrote: Show nested quote + On April 16 2011 14:12 Steal City wrote: When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software AND the people AND the government... here you just have to trust the software but it's open source so you can see what people say about it. You should learn to read up on things so that you actually know what to criticise instead of just accusing people of what in the end amounts to nothing. I'm doing a favour to LP letting them know about this. The banking industries have a LOT at stake if they fuck up your money and it gets hacked/stolen/whatever. If an issue did arise, they would certainly remedy it. Why? Due to the profit they're making, and the sensitivity regarding peoples views on 'digital' money being thrown around or whatever. If I look in my account, and see that it got charged for something it shouldn't have.. or if someone over in Texas somehow bought a bunch of shit on my CC, I simply pick up my phone, sit on hold for 5 minutes, talk to somebody for different amounts of time (depending on the seriousness of the issue) and voila, situation resolved. Just reading a couple paragraphs about bitcoin.. how if you don't save your e-wallet, the bitcoins disappear. If you don't back it up after EVERY transaction, you run the risk of it disappearing. You say that all we have to do is trust the software.. what about these 'nodes' on which it's all based on? wtf is that all about. If these little pieces of zynga chips get lost, you have zero chance of getting it back. I dunno, I'd rather pay the current fee (which, I don't even think there is when I use ebay, amazon, etc. on my credit card), simply for the piece of mind. That being said, I did once try out moneybookers ages ago, and I couldn't believe the % of fee's there. Solution? Didn't use them again. edit: Again, not bashing this idea or anything as that would be extremely ignorant to completely turn your nose at something that can potentially be very beneficial - I'm just wondering if any of the concerns mentioned are valid, or am I stupid in thinking so?

you mention good points Bitcoin is very young. Clients will be added and 3rd party sites will develop which will provide all those features at much cheaper rates. Some things are startling. I tried to send money from Amsterdam to London instantaneously using Wester Union the exchange rate is 22% alone, USD to EUR to GBP... yes they won't do the straight transfer I asked 2 different places and the transfer costs money too. You can set up 3rd party sites which offer the same amount of protection, insurance, et cetera buvt they will simply be more competitively priced because of the much lower overhead.

btw devon, the banks you currently use very likely the same type of base software and there are extensions built around it and password retrieve functions et cetera. All of those can be added and I assume will in time.

On April 16 2011 15:41 Arirang wrote: Note that I'm not against the change in anyway, I like new things and this bitcoin thing obviously sounds good for a commoner like me. So yeah, calling me Luddite and whatnot (which I was ignorant of until I looked it up, and clearly, I know for sure that I am not of such kind) was kind of uncalled for. I don't even know how you got such an impression, I was simply inquiring about some stuff that I am ignorant about. That doesn't make me suddenly "against" this whole bitcoin thing. That just makes me say, "you know what, fuck you and your rupees". I was just inquiring about its realistic, commercial success. We are all poker players here and we are as real as gets when it comes to the matter of money. I may not be aware of all the intricacies of all this in play, but my question was basically could this thing be beneficial for everyone, even the businesses, and the government, and not just for the convenience of people. Because I figured there's a good amount of money being made for the things being the way they are, and with the introduction of bitcoins, there could be some loss in revenue in that regards, so I was curious if there was a way bitcoin can compensate for the loss of revenue there. To which I think you replied, "yeah, there is", so I'm like, "okay". Funktion's concerns are legitimate, and he speaks much of what I, an ignorant individual (generally) concern about as well. I think it'd be best if you can explain all these things in the most rudimentary level possible so even a dumbass like me can understand, instead of having to cite to bunch of videos and articles (although, they are a bonus and you should keep referring to them for sheer reference purposes, it adds credibility if anything). But the whole credential thing is extremely stupid imho. And I hope both of you would stop, especially Funktion since you are the one pressing the issue here. I feel stupid to explain why.

Hey, the Luddite was comment was half joking, i mean in history it's a whole joke but it was half me face-palming to you making contradictory statements instead of asking me to explain further the part you didn't follow. I'm being accused of being too abstract and broad while at the same time being not general enough

On April 16 2011 15:41 Arirang wrote: But the whole credential thing is extremely stupid imho. And I hope both of you would stop, especially Funktion since you are the one pressing the issue here. I feel stupid to explain why.

Would you trust an Accountant to give you medical advice? Would you trust an engineer to do your financial planning for you? Would you trust someone who has spent the "last few days" getting "acquainted" with a a new piece of technology to appropriately explain the nuances of how it works and what its implications are? He is essentially saying and I am paraphrasing "I know it works, trust me". In my experience unless people are incredibly thick or gullible this doesn't happen. Especially when it come to monetary matters. This guy doesn't even know what information science is?!?! He still hasn't said what his degree is in or offered up his experience as why his word is good enough to trust and yet acts like it should be. The excuse of you can look at the code yourself isn't good enough, as there is more to a new currency than just some code to move it around.

The point is he might have the right motivation but he isn't conveying that enthusiasm correctly imo. Saying things like "trust will be automatic" is moronic. Trust is never automatic in the marketing world (and this is marketing whether he wants it to be or not, he is promoting a service to LP). Or in pretty much any other field either. It's this sort of statement that just screams of no experience to me and when someone has no experience or no credentials their statements to me need to be scrutinised even further. Does the Hero poker guy just say "trust me guys, it's legit"? No, he explains everything in detail and with a reason for that explanation. If he doesn't know something he will check. If his product doesn't suit one users needs or expectations he states it. The point is not every product suits everyones needs and wants and he realises that, Steal doesn't. He also knows he doesn't have all the answers, Steal doesn't. Product trust doesn't happen over night.

The bottom line for me is I don't want to see LP people scammed or put confidence in a technology that may have loop holes/exploits etc that the creators aren't aware of yet. As an early adopter of bitcoin I can't see how the marginal benefits out way the marginal costs. I think advantages like "no intermediaries" touted as a big plus is actually a big negative etc. I just see too many reasons for sitting back and waiting.

And no I don't know the Hero poker guy, play on his site or whatever. I just think he goes about shit in a professional way and seems intelligent (no homo).

On April 16 2011 14:10 Steal City wrote: When you put money in banks you trust their less developed software

On April 16 2011 16:01 Steal City wrote: btw devon, the banks you currently use very likely the same type of base software

Ok cool story bro. You're doing great.

From the FAQ
Where can I get Bitcoins?
Find a Bitcoin owner and sell her something - MMORPG equipment, IT support, lawn mowing, dollars or whatever you can trade with her. You can also generate new Bitcoins for yourself by running a Bitcoin network node.

So your wealth is determined by the amount of CPU power you have?
No. There's a constant average rate of new Bitcoins created, and that amount is divided among the nodes by the CPU power they supply. The competition for coin creation will drive the price of electricity needed for generating a coin close to the value of the coin, so the profit margin won't be that huge. The easier way to gain a lot of wealth would be trading goods.

At the moment, though, you can generate new coins quite profitably, if you expect them to have real value in the future. If you choose to, be aware that Bitcoin is still experimental software.

Funktion you really sounds like a douch, i dont know why you are so agressive this is ridiculous.
I dont wanna point out all the bullshit you have written coz it would be too long but since you seems to give a lot of credit to your degree plz try to honored it.
And to be clear, stealcity doesnt promote or is doing "marketing" since there is nothing to sell. Bitcoins isnt owned by anyone, he is just trying to spread the news. You dont care ? great, next thread, coz lp doesnt need you and your nice degree to be aware of any weaknesses or scamm possibilities in anything.

So plz go out run a little bit, find a solution but dont be so frustrate men.

On April 16 2011 14:42 ShLiM wrote: how u withdraw, from the bitcoin system, to get real cash, cuz bars, local stores etc, they want CASH, and how u avoid banks, in the process of exchanging bitcoins to real cash

you don't. you trade bitcoin that you have for "stuff" or sell the bitcoin to people who want it, for cash. the system operates on the premise that the time of those people who are facilitating transactions by running a node (who are randomly given bitcoins by the system for approximately the value of the electricity used to process transactions) is worth less than those who use bitcoins to buy WOW mounts or whatever, and that those people will go ahead and pay cash for bitcoins. it's an interesting concept.

On April 17 2011 03:47 FullBRing wrote: Funktion you really sounds like a douch, i dont know why you are so agressive this is ridiculous. I dont wanna point out all the bullshit you have written coz it would be too long but since you seems to give a lot of credit to your degree plz try to honored it. And to be clear, stealcity doesnt promote or is doing "marketing" since there is nothing to sell. Bitcoins isnt owned by anyone, he is just trying to spread the news. You dont care ? great, next thread, coz lp doesnt need you and your nice degree to be aware of any weaknesses or scamm possibilities in anything. So plz go out run a little bit, find a solution but dont be so frustrate men.

Great post! You sound like an intelligent chap.

Just a couple things before I never respond to you're stupidity again. 1/ Promotion is exactly what is going on here. Just because he isn't charging doesn't mean it's not marketing but you're too stupid to know that obviously. 2/ "You don't care" I think I made it quite clear I don't want people from LP to lose money, thus showing I DO care. Again you show you're lack of intelligence. 3/ Scams have happened here on numerous occasions which should make it obvious even to a retard like you that people need to be aware of scamming and exploits. If my posts can make even a few people aware or more cautious before leaping in then all well and good. 4/ I have knowledge and experience in the exact field he is talking about and I used my degree as a reference so that people know that my opinion is at least founded on something instead of "a few days" of knowledge. He is stating his opinion but dressing it up like facts. Which can be very deceptive and can mislead people.

If you had read and understood anything going on here you would see I'm not opposed to the idea but to how its being put across. Genjix was imo much better at it. I hope this shit takes off as a legit currency and is super secure and no one ever gets scammed or exploited but just because I hope that's what happens doesn't mean it's realistic. Why am I even typing this when you probably a) won't read it properly or b) stick with your original opinion anyway? Such a waste of time.

some rage ITT

lol you are hopeless.
Actually its because he's not charging that its not marketing.
"The right product, in the right place, at the right time, at the right price -

Adcock(© Lavoisier 2000-2008)"

I really dont know how you wanna prove your point by being so arrogant and such a pitbull.
Calm down big boy !
I think that i've read a lot more things about this project than you, im talking a lot with genjix on irc about this whole things, there is already a lot of exchange, trade that has been made, noone has been scammed and there is already a big community around this projects even in france.
"The system is secure as long as honnest nodes collectivly control more CPU power than any cooperating group of attacker nodes."
Good luck to do that. Im not gonna explain you whats is clearly written=>
http://www.bitcoin.org/sites/default/files/bitcoin.pdf
So if you wanna improves your social ability, try not to insult people, strangely they will be more receptive to your speech.
And im begging you, dont forget to "Just a couple things before I never respond to you're stupidity again."

On April 17 2011 06:04 whamm! wrote: some rage ITT

I don't think anyone is ITT? Could be wrong though.

On April 17 2011 07:14 Funktion wrote: Show nested quote + On April 17 2011 06:04 whamm! wrote: some rage ITT I don't think anyone is ITT? Could be wrong though.

lol

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=itt